The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Flem274*]

tremlett and bresnan fading away was sad. i rated them both. england have had a fair share of talent come through (anderson, broad, tremlett, bresnan, onions, finn) but only two lasted any length of time and delivered.

in contrast australia is amazing at pulling bowlers back from the dead (the glass quartet) and turning decent bowlers into monsters (harris, johnson).

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah that roughly lines up with what I worked out, I said all along I was excluding 2010-11, as Smith was still very much picked as an allrounder back then

FWIW I was just using the ball by ball cricinfo commentary to try and calculate, but going forward that site looks like it could be very handy indeed

Agree with your overall contention that 2010-11 Smith shouldn't really be considered when judging Smith the batsman but from what I recall he wasn't really picked as an all-rounder in 2010-11. He was picked as batsman, but he definitely shouldn't have been. Might have bowled a bit at Sydney I think but that's about it.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Agree with your overall contention that 2010-11 Smith shouldn't really be considered when judging Smith the batsman but from what I recall he wasn't really picked as an all-rounder in 2010-11. He was picked as batsman, but he definitely shouldn't have been. Might have bowled a bit at Sydney I think but that's about it.

He was still bowling a decent amount domestically from what I can remember, but yeah Smith didn't send down that many overs in the Ashes. Think it's partly down to him starting be seen increasingly as a batsman even by then as you are saying and partly down to Ponting not really trusting him not to go the journey

 

[Line and Length]

Anderson has been consistently underwhelming in Ashes cricket throughout his entire career

I would have to disagree with that statement GAS.

Anderson has turned in some fine performances in Ashes Tests, particularly in first innings where the game is to be won. And these performances are not restricted to England wickets and the Duke ball.

2009 4 - 55 1st innings @ Lords
2009 5 - 80 1st innings @ Edgbaston
2010/11 4 - 51 1st innings @ Adelaide
2010/11 4 - 44 1st innings @ MCG
2010/11 4 - 66 1st innings @ SCG
2013 5 - 85 1st innings @ Trent Bridge then 5 - 73 in second innings
2013/14 4 - 67 1st innings @ MCG
2015 3-43 1st innings @ Cardiff
2015 6 - 47 1st innings @ Edgbaston

Granted his bowling average against Australia is higher than against other countries but he has a bowling averages of 24.2 at the MCG and sub 30 at the SCG and Adelaide.

It has been several years since Anderson has been at his best and, sadly, is judged on more recent performances. However, to say he "has been consistently underwhelming in Ashes cricket throughout his entire career" is clearly not taking into account the performances given above.

 

[Burgey]

I just loved how scared he was when he was facing Johnson out here. On those cold, rainy nights in the dead of winter when I'm feeling a little low, I often fill a snifter with cognac and watch Johnson make a fool of him. Always makes me feel better, like watching the replay of Australia beating England 3-1 in 2003.

 

[ImpatientLime]

so much this, there is no smith-kohli-root-williamson "big four" anymore, though i do think williamson can jump back up and make it a big three

yeah

as an aside however root is filthy underrated as an odi batsman. weird how little he is talked about in an atg sense because his record is bonkers.

 

[stephen]

yeah

as an aside however root is filthy underrated as an odi batsman. weird how little he is talked about in an atg sense because his record is bonkers.

Yeah he's excellent but it's hard to properly rate any of the modern Englishmen IMO. They all have ridiculous averages and strike rates. Stats that a decade ago would have made them goats.

 

[trundler]

yeah

as an aside however root is filthy underrated as an odi batsman. weird how little he is talked about in an atg sense because his record is bonkers.

CW voted him as the #3 for the English ATODIXi though

 

[ImpatientLime]

Yeah he's excellent but it's hard to properly rate any of the modern Englishmen IMO. They all have ridiculous averages and strike rates. Stats that a decade ago would have made them goats.

i dunno, maybe they're just really good? as evidenced by their record home and away for four years?

 

[ImpatientLime]

CW voted him as the #3 for the English ATODIXi though

poor based trotty

 

[Starfighter]

I would have to disagree with that statement GAS.

Anderson has turned in some fine performances in Ashes Tests, particularly in first innings where the game is to be won. And these performances are not restricted to England wickets and the Duke ball.

2009 4 - 55 1st innings @ Lords
2009 5 - 80 1st innings @ Edgbaston
2010/11 4 - 51 1st innings @ Adelaide
2010/11 4 - 44 1st innings @ MCG
2010/11 4 - 66 1st innings @ SCG
2013 5 - 85 1st innings @ Trent Bridge then 5 - 73 in second innings
2013/14 4 - 67 1st innings @ MCG
2015 3-43 1st innings @ Cardiff
2015 6 - 47 1st innings @ Edgbaston

Granted his bowling average against Australia is higher than against other countries but he has a bowling averages of 24.2 at the MCG and sub 30 at the SCG and Adelaide.

It has been several years since Anderson has been at his best and, sadly, is judged on more recent performances. However, to say he "has been consistently underwhelming in Ashes cricket throughout his entire career" is clearly not taking into account the performances given above.

No, it is taking them into account. You can't take out all the poor performances between. Fact is he has been underwhelming despite having put up some good performances at times. Eight series is enough to consider it consistent.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

yeah

as an aside however root is filthy underrated as an odi batsman. weird how little he is talked about in an atg sense because his record is bonkers.

While I have tried to block the game out of my memory, Root was terrible in the WC final. He couldn't lay a bat on CDG.

 

[stephen]

i dunno, maybe they're just really good? as evidenced by their record home and away for four years?

They are undoubtedly very good players, and England were favourites and credit where credit is due, they rightly tied the last world cup. They were the equal team on the day.

But it's not just those guys. Pakistan had a top 3 who average over 50. Shai Hope averages over 50. Kohli averages 60. Smith averages over 50 batting at 3. Williamson averages 47.

The stats inflation in the last 5 years has been astounding. Far greater than what we saw between 02 and 07.

I mean I appreciate the modern game for what it is but it's impossible to compare between this era and others. The sheer volume of guys putting out Viv-esqe numbers is insane. To do a tier list of modern players would be very difficult.

 

[trundler]

Well based on consistency, longevity and quality of opposition Kohli, Rohit, Warner, Root, Taylor, Morgan and Duplesis are standouts.

 

[ankitj]

If only there was a way to do normalisation by eras. Did someone create a thread like that recently?

 

[trundler]

Yeah but even then guys like Fakhar and Rashid are massively flattered by their averages. It's not that 50 is the new 40, it's that you can average 50 and apparently still be unexceptional.

 

[ankitj]

Rashid needs an opposition wise standardization not era wise. And let's be clear, it's easy to demonstrate that no one has Viv like numbers. No one.

 

[Line and Length]

No, it is taking them into account. You can't take out all the poor performances between. Fact is he has been underwhelming despite having put up some good performances at times. Eight series is enough to consider it consistent.

My argument is with the "consistently underwhelming". I was highlighting selected performances to point out that he isn't always underwhelming. The very word "consistently" is obviously a poor choice of words.

 

[Flem274*]

root is one of the few english odi batsmen im scared of in a real game tbh. roys a flat track hero, ditto bairstow and the other hacks they've toyed with for a bit. the core is root/morgan/stokes/buttler.

root is the best english odi batsman ever.

 

[honestbharani]

Isn't it close between him and Buttler?