DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[Burgey]

FMD Tendulkar still gets to bat four lol

I think Bradman stays at three someone else probably has to make do opening tbh, but certainly a great side.

 

[Coronis]

Interestingly of the top 15 batsmen, 10 of them either played in the 30’s or 00’s. (9 if you don’t count the 1930 Ashes for Hobbs). Of the remaining players, Richards and Gavaskar careers almost entirely overlapped, and Barrington played his entire career during Sobers’.

More broadly, 11 of the top 15 batsmen played either during the interwar period or the 21st century.

 

[Prince EWS]

FMD Tendulkar still gets to bat four lol

I think Bradman stays at three someone else probably has to make do opening tbh, but certainly a great side.

Yeah just give Tendy a blue undershirt and tell him it's an ODI until he gets out there IMO. I think he's got the technique and temperament for it moreso than Lara, Smith or Sobers; Sanga is keeping and Bradman can bat where he likes.

 

[Days of Grace]

I can tell you what may the reason . From 2008-14 , in most of SA's big score overseas , atleast 2 players made centuries. This would reduce percentage of total runs scored by Kallis as compared to Sangakkara who was the lone warrior in his team overseas. Similar to why WI bowlers were ranked low in DOG's bowling rating. So even difficult batting surface becomes easy in his ratings because 2 to 3 SA batsman of Smith, Amla, Kallis, Devilliers scored big on them imo.

This is quite close to the mark. I adjust averages by era, strength of opposition, and the batting conditions in a match, in which the innings in question (i.e. your team's innings) gets more weight compared to the other innings in the match. Sangakkara tonning up against good opposition overseas whilst his teammates fell by the wayside would have helped him a lot.

 

[Migara]

Even Indian bowlers usually suck in SL. Imo more so due to the kookaburra than the pitch/overhead conditions though.

Yes, Kookaburra / SG ball had an impact on spinners of both countries. Murali particularly did not like SG, and preferred Duke due to the seam, that he can use to produce bounce. It may be the reason for the discrepancy of stats of muarli, Kumble and Harbhajan in India and SL.

 

[Logan]

Uh do you know anything about cricket history? Before Bradman WG was far and away considered the best. Indeed, my book says that (much inferior to Grace) 'In the 1880s and 1890s Arthur Shrewsbury [Milenko: a batsman far inferior to Grace] held a position of honour in the cricket world similar to that held by Jack Hobbs thirty to forty years later.'

Can’t you understand anything? I was talking about how Hobbs was the best batsman of his era and peerless till Sutcliffe came into the picture.

 

[Coronis]

Another interesting thing, ever since 1908, at least one of these top 15 blokes has been playing.

 

[Migara]

You set about comparing the records of two players across countries vs the best bowlers in different eras. I pointed out that Lara's record when playing against full strength sides in Australia is much better than Gavaskar's. In other words, Lara facing McGrath & Warne here >>>> Gavaskar facing Lillee and Anyone here. You then decided to introduce Kapil Dev and Dennis Lillee's five fer records in and out of Asia respectively, as if that somehow had anything at all to do with the very topic you started talking about.

The Point sunilz is bringing is simple. He don't rate Lillee in the class of McGrath, and don't consider Aussie attack during the time as a top class attack. We may disagree that, bur that is an argument for another time. If we were to say Lillee is great even with a hole in his record, he would argue we have to treat Harbhajan, Kumble and Jadeja who has similar holes accordingly. According to him, if failures against "second string" attacks like Australia during Gavaskar's day counts, so should be Lara's (lack of) performances against "second rate" Indian attacks.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too. Needs consistency in the arguments.

 

[Migara]

Kallis and Sanga averaged pretty much the same away from home. After your adjustments, Sanga comes out ahead away in terms of average. I have given some reasons why I would expect Kallis to come ahead. My question is why Sanga comes out on front? It is a little counterintuitive, at least if we accept general CW truisims.

Probably Kallis' nadirs are more shocking than Sanga's. Saga had relatively poor records in England, SAF and India. Kallis had problems in England and in SL. I cannot remember the averages, but that my be the reason.

 

[honestbharani]

If you take the Top 7 batsmen here(which includes a WK) and the Top 4 bowlers from the bowlers' thread, you get an XI like this.

Hobbs
Bradman
Lara
Tendulkar
Smith
Sobers
Sangakkara
Hadlee
Steyn
Barnes
Muralitharan

Great team !

Yep.. Smith and Sachin to bowl leggies, Sobers to bowl all sorts. Gives you so many many options with the ball as well, even though no one is getting through that top 7 under most conditions for less than 300. That is the real value of a Sobers. Even if you wanna nit pick your stats, there is literally no one else you would wanna have at #6 than him.

 

[honestbharani]

A word about my favorite batsman in all my time of watching cricket. The Prince simply elevated not just batting but even watching cricket to a different level. Gilchrist has this wonderful anecdote of how in an ODI, Ponting moved midwicket out after Lara threaded the gap between point and deep cover for a boundary and placed him at a straightish point. Lara apparently mumbled "mistake" and tonked the next ball through midwicket for a boundary. Gilly apparently sledged the Prince about trying to hit another boundary through point. And guess what he did next ball? Threaded the ball between 3 fielders (1 on the boundary) for another drive through point for 4.

There was a similar write-up by R Mohan,a very venerated writer on cricket who used to work for The Hindu and Sportstar, during the first test of India's tour of Windies in 1998. Lara made 70 odd in the third innings but it was such a slow, sticky track where the only way to get runs was to grind them out. But Lara still produced a stroke filled innings that prompted Mohan, usually someone who reserves high praises for players, to write that Lara's innings was the difference between simply great batting and great "batsmanship". I think the piece was on Sportstar during that series (April 1998?) and it was titled "Batsmanship at its best". I will try and scour the interwebz to see if I can find the link.

Just so so so lucky to have been able to watch greatness like this during my lifetime as a cricket fan.

 

[h_hurricane]

Brian Charles Lara was arguably the best placer of cricket ball in its fabled history. Batting came so naturally to him just like his great predecessors Sobers and Richards. It is a tribute to his greatness that he underachieved so much and yet accomplished a hell lot.

 

[Logan]

Brian Charles Lara was arguably the best placer of cricket ball in its fabled history. Batting came so naturally to him just like his great predecessors Sobers and Richards. It is a tribute to his greatness that he underachieved so much and yet accomplished a hell lot.

The two batsmen who made batting look easy are ABD and Lara.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Wow those ratings between Sachin (well Barrington) up to Lara are very close.

IMO I still think Sachin was most hampered by retiring too late, rather than any perceived performances against quality opposition/lack of huge test runs (guess he's just not that type of player so that would have been a very drastic change, vs something much more realistic - retiring at the top). B

At one point it looked a certainty he'd retire with a 55+ average. If I recall, DOG said he'd have finished with 896 points if he'd retired in 2011 after the World Cup?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Would be interesting to see the peak combined quality+career points for the top 10-15 batsmen. Ponting's especially would be much higher than his final tally.

 

[Days of Grace]

Wow those ratings between Sachin (well Barrington) up to Lara are very close.

IMO I still think Sachin was most hampered by retiring too late, rather than any perceived performances against quality opposition/lack of huge test runs (guess he's just not that type of player so that would have been a very drastic change, vs something much more realistic - retiring at the top). B

At one point it looked a certainty he'd retire with a 55+ average. If I recall, DOG said he'd have finished with 896 points if he'd retired in 2011 after the World Cup?

898 points.

When this is done, I'll attempt to post the high water mark for each of the top 25 test batsmen.

 

[srbhkshk]

DoG if you are having issues doing in in excel, I can try writing an R code for you. It automates things a bit better.

 

[Days of Grace]

DoG if you are having issues doing in in excel, I can try writing an R code for you. It automates things a bit better.

The system is in place so I can manage for now, thanks. I may PM you in the future, though.

 

[pardus]

Lara should have made his Test debut couple of years before he actually did (was supposedly kept out because of inter-Island politics when it came to West Indian batsmen selection).
In January 1988, he scored a brilliant 92 on a wet pitch in the Red Stripe Cup against Marshall & Garner when (as usual) rest of his side collapsed. After watching the innings,
Holding said something to the effect of - if he were the selector, Brian Lara would be the first name he would pen down.
Lara would make his Test debut 3 years later.

Lara's Test career could be almost evenly divided into 3 phases.
1. Brilliant first 5 years - his career took off with him scoring a 50 in 8 of his first 10 Test matches which were against Pakistan, South Africa & Australia
2. Abysmal second 5 years - his Test average during this phase was 36. Averaged 20 against Pakistan, 30 against Sri Lanka, 31 against South Africa, 38 against England. Failed against everyone.
3. Stellar last 5 years - scored 500+ runs in a single series against Australia, South Africa, England. Nearly did against Pak too in his final Test series.
He "retired" earlier than he should have (in the sense that he was still the best Test batsman of his side when he retired).

 

[Slifer]

A word about my favorite batsman in all my time of watching cricket. The Prince simply elevated not just batting but even watching cricket to a different level. Gilchrist has this wonderful anecdote of how in an ODI, Ponting moved midwicket out after Lara threaded the gap between point and deep cover for a boundary and placed him at a straightish point. Lara apparently mumbled "mistake" and tonked the next ball through midwicket for a boundary. Gilly apparently sledged the Prince about trying to hit another boundary through point. And guess what he did next ball? Threaded the ball between 3 fielders (1 on the boundary) for another drive through point for 4.

There was a similar write-up by R Mohan,a very venerated writer on cricket who used to work for The Hindu and Sportstar, during the first test of India's tour of Windies in 1998. Lara made 70 odd in the third innings but it was such a slow, sticky track where the only way to get runs was to grind them out. But Lara still produced a stroke filled innings that prompted Mohan, usually someone who reserves high praises for players, to write that Lara's innings was the difference between simply great batting and great "batsmanship". I think the piece was on Sportstar during that series (April 1998?) and it was titled "Batsmanship at its best". I will try and scour the interwebz to see if I can find the link.

Just so so so lucky to have been able to watch greatness like this during my lifetime as a cricket fan.

I remember that test. And at that point in the match I believe a draw was obviously on but to entertain the crowd, lara pulled out all his shots. I believe he did the same in the 5th test as well.