DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[pardus]

Lara had a series defining knock in that series IIRC, playing Wasim, Waqar and Mushtaq well, only to be bowled off the pad by Asif Mujtaba.

Pressure of getting his first century in his home country got to Lara in that score of 96 against Pak in 1993.
He had to wait another 10 years before he could score his first century in his home country (against Aus in 2003, when too in the first innings he was out in the 90s).

Lara actually looked very decent in his Test debut innings of 44 against Wasim & Waqar in 1991 before getting out to Abdul Qadir.
In his next 8 or 9 Test matches which included Test matches against Donald in 1992, against Aus in 1992-93 and against Wasim & Waqar again in 1992-93, Lara scored at least one 50 in every Test match he played.
The only time - in that run - when he didn't make a 50 in a Test match was against Aus in Perth in 1993 (Aus got bowled out for so low totals that Windies just had to bat once).
That is pretty good consistency given the quality of the opposition.

The inconsistency bug really bit Lara after his first big fight with WICB in early 1996, and lasted till early 2001. It wasn't like he was failing only against great attacks.
His stats against England, Sri Lanka & India in that timeframe (when their attacks weren't particularly great) were very modest too.
Ironically though, it was during this timeframe that he had his greatest series (against McGrath in 1999).

 

[mr_mister]

Wisden rated him the greatest ever test bowler in 2002. When did he develop the doosra?

 

[jimmy101]

Always loved how Murali pronounced doosra when interviewed.

He'd pronounce it "dooshra"

 

[Starfighter]

Can you do the same with lara and waugh?? Obviously neither can play their own team so...McGrath, W W and Donald for Lara. You can figure out Waugh....

Lara
Waugh

Wonderful exercise in statistical nitpickery but clearly Waugh >> Lara >> Tendulkar

 

[stephen]

Wisden rated him the greatest ever test bowler in 2002. When did he develop the doosra?

Around 2001 I think it was.

He took 227 wickets at 27 during the 90s. Which is very good but nothing compared to his 565 wickets at 21 during the 00s.

 

[mr_mister]

Around 2001 I think it was.

He took 227 wickets at 27 during the 90s. Which is very good but nothing compared to his 565 wickets at 21 during the 00s.

That average would be a smidge lower if he wasn't incorrectly called noball for chucking so many times. What was his 90s record in SL?

But yeah, Wisden probably jumped the the gun a bit calling him that in '02

 

[mr_mister]

Lara
Waugh

Wonderful exercise in statistical nitpickery but clearly Waugh >> Lara >> Tendulkar

Absolutely saved by his 277 + the '99 series against us

Looks like Wasim and Donald hunted him for sport

Edit - referring to Lara of course

 

[OverratedSanity]

Then Sachin's average in the 90s collapses to 36.9 (compared to 58 listed by the other poster).
I wanted to say the same thing but meltdown of this thread would have started in real earnest.

I find it hilariously lame how so many people desperately want this to happen.

 

[mr_mister]

One thing I will say about that 90s stat vs ATGs was that Waugh had 4 years being a pretty mediocre test bat in the 80s. The '90s lined up with his peak form, he had time to hone his craft before. Sachin and Lara were babies at the beginning of the decade.

But it's still impressive

 

[jimmy101]

One thing I will say about that 90s stat vs ATGs was that Waugh had 4 years being a pretty mediocre test bat in the 80s. The '90s lined up with his peak form, he had time to hone his craft before. Sachin and Lara were babies at the beginning of the decade.

But it's still impressive

Tugga really took off in '93, they just couldn't get him out during that time. Sachin, of course, took a few years to spread his wings as well. Out of the three, Lara seemed to have the best start to his intl. career.

 

[Days of Grace]

Let's have a closer look at those 90s stats

Adjusted Average
Tendulkar 5675 runs @ 54.62 (57.32)
Lara 5573 runs @ 50.49 (51.60)
Waugh 6270 runs @ 52.05 (53.14)

Average opposition rating
Tendulkar 99.66
Lara 103.55
Waugh 101.77

RPW in all matches played
Tendulkar 34.77
Lara 29.79
Waugh 30.96

As you can see, Tendulkar's average was adjusted down by quite a lot compared to Lara and Waugh, because he faced a slightly lower standard of opposition and mainly because he batted in easier conditions across the decade.

 

[mr_mister]

Tugga really took off in '93, they just couldn't get him out during that time. Sachin, of course, took a few years to spread his wings as well. Out of the three, Lara seemed to have the best start to his intl. career.

Ah yeah. He had that really solid '89 ashes which always stops me from saying he was mediocre from 85-93 which he pretty much was other than that series

it's funny after being persisted with for 4 years without a ton just based on potential he only got dropped in 1990, just after that '89 series where he finally proved the selectors were right to persist with him

 

[Days of Grace]

If we do the same for Sobers and Barrington in the 1960s:

Adjusted Average
Sobers 4563 runs @ 59.36 (60.04)
Barrington 6397 runs @ 57.17 (59.79)

Average opposition rating
Sobers 105.80
Barrington 101.67

RPW in all matches played
Sobers 33.68
Barrington 33.94

Not much difference in batting conditions but Sobers faced stronger opposition so his average doesn't take as much of a hit.

 

[jimmy101]

Ah yeah. He had that really solid '89 ashes which always stops me from saying he was mediocre from 85-93 which he pretty much was other than that series

it's funny after being persisted with for 4 years without a ton just based on potential he only got dropped in 1990, just after that '89 series where he finally proved the selectors were right to persist with him

Yeah true. I might be mistaken, but I don't think Waugh was dismissed until the third test of that series, which is unreal. Funny thing is, Mark Waugh was absolutely smashing it in the Shield pretty much for the entire time during the late 80's yet couldn't break into the test side. Junior was pretty much the Michael Hussey/Brad Hodge of the late 80's.

 

[pardus]

Can you do the same with lara and waugh?? Obviously neither can play their own team so...McGrath, W W and Donald for Lara. You can figure out Waugh....

Lara slightly better than Tendulkar. Averaging 41


Waugh way better than both Lara & Tendulkar. Averaging 49


What is further stunning in the case of Waugh is the sheer number of matches he played against great attacks in 90s.
He literally played twice the number of matches against them than Sachin did.

What I observed back in 90s was, against great attacks, grinders (batsmen like Waugh or Chanderpaul) generally tended to perform more consistently than attacking stroke players.
But post 2000, above observation no longer held true. Attacking batsmen like Ponting, Lara, Sanga were consistent in all conditions.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sachin scored ~300 or more runs in a Test series 21 times in his career
Lara scored ~300 or more runs in a Test series 19 times in his career. I don't think Sachin has much over Lara kind of players there, especially given that he has played a lot more Test cricket than Lara.

Nah, west indies were looked at as a marquee side for a long time so they got many more longer series than India did. Lara played 18 series of 4+ tests, Tendulkar only 13 despite a much longer career.

 

[Slifer]

Lara slightly better than Tendulkar. Averaging 41
View attachment 25044

Waugh way better than both Lara & Tendulkar. Averaging 49
View attachment 25045

What is further stunning in the case of Waugh is the sheer number of matches he played against great attacks in 90s.
He literally played twice the number of matches against them than Sachin did.

What I observed back in 90s was, against great attacks, grinders (batsmen like Waugh or Chanderpaul) generally tended to perform more consistently than attacking stroke players.
But post 2000, above observation no longer held true. Attacking batsmen like Ponting, Lara, Sanga were consistent in all conditions.

I'm guessing that outside of Australia, it had a lot to do with the decline in quality attacks....

 

[Slifer]

Nah, west indies were looked at as a marquee side for a long time so they got many more longer series than India did. Lara played 18 series of 4+ tests, Tendulkar only 13 despite a much longer career.

Without looking I believe Lara managed to go 500+ in 6 of those 4 + test series. In the 7th test series that he went 500 +it just so happen to be a 3 match test series. Surely, sachin could've managed at least one of those 13 series where he could pile on the runs...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Without looking I believe Lara managed to go 500+ in 6 of those 4 + test series. In the 7th test series that he went 500 +it just so happen to be a 3 match test series. Surely, sachin could've managed at least one of those 13 series where he could pile on the runs...

They were talking about 300~ run series. No one's arguing against Lara having more massive series, he was much better at that than Sachin was.

 

[pardus]

Nah, west indies were looked at as a marquee side for a long time so they got many more longer series than India did. Lara played 18 series of 4+ tests, Tendulkar only 13 despite a much longer career.

Actually I included couple of series where Tendulkar didn't cross 300 runs because he came very close, and performed well in those series

In any case, since the other poster was talking about Tendulkar's vastly superior consistency, one direct way of measuring consistency is the frequency with which a batsman scores 50 or more runs.

Tendulkar has 119 scores of 50 or more runs in 329 innings, means he scores 50 or more every 2.76 innings
Lara has 82 scores of 50 or more runs in 232 innings, means he scores 50 or more every 2.83 innings
This means, if they had both batted 200 innings with their career consistency, Tendulkar would have crossed 50, couple of more times than Lara (72 times vs 70 times).

Not a significant difference in consistency in my opinion.