The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ImpatientLime]

I mean Warne played 5/6 tests every 18 months against absolutely trash england teams and wracked up 195 wickets in the process

 

[NUFAN]

I mean Warne played 5/6 tests every 18 months against absolutely trash england teams and wracked up 195 wickets in the process

I get the feeling that the thrash English teams Warne faced, wouldnt have been considered as thrash if we were struggling to find a quality spinner.

Honestly, England regularly had at least 4 or 5 out of the top 6 who were good test batsman.

 

[stephen]

I get the feeling that the thrash English teams Warne faced, wouldnt have been considered as thrash if we were struggling to find a quality spinner.

Honestly, England regularly had at least 4 or 5 out of the top 6 who were good test batsman.

Yeah the 90s English teams were lower ranked mostly because their bowlers were good but not ATG, which meant that their attacks were behind WI, Aus, Pak and SA. Their batting was mostly fine, even if Atherton was McGrath's bunny.

 

[Logan]

Personally, there are questions on his action (but it was cleared by the ICC, so here we are) , but more so it's to do with the fact that he played 25 tests against Bang and Zim, yielding almost 200 of his wickets in those games, while Warne played only 3 tests against those two nations.

The other factor is Warne was a complete master of cricket's hardest skill, while Murali was an offie.

Wasn’t Murali’s record even without Zim/Bang just as good as Warne? Also Murali was a one army.

Not sure I care about the last part. At the end of the day I will go for the guy who can score runs and pick up wickets. Whether it is bowling fast or being an offie or bowling leg spin.

 

[kyear2]

I've watched a lot of cricket of late. Live yes, but on YouTube as well. That's part of why currently Murali is in my ATG XI. He just could go all day and was always at the batsmen.

It also affirmed my belief in a strong cordon, especially when watching the likes of Steyn at work.

My harshest omissions were Tendulkar and Richards, but Smith has done enough and want to play Sobers as a batsman.

For bowlers, McGrath was the most painful cut, but Hadlee was similar, probably more suited for 1st change and bowling with the new ball and a much better bat.

So as previously listed, oh, and Kallis with his technique and temperament, he could bat anywhere. And for this team, more suited to bat with the tail and Gilly.

Sir Len Hutton
Sir Jack Hobbs
Sir Don Bradman
Steve Smith
Sir Garry Sobers
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist
Sir Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Dale Steyn
Muttiah Muralitharan

 

[Logan]

My ATG teams change frequently but this is my current ATG Test team

Hobbs
Gavaskar
Bradman
Sachin
Kallis
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Steyn
Murali

Gavaskar is my choice for opener. To be as good as Hobbs and Hutton in the modern era is an extraordinary achievement especially considering he played for a **** team.

I will wait for Smith’s career to get over before picking him. In a few years, he will most likely replace Sachin.

 

[Red]

Wasn’t Murali’s record even without Zim/Bang just as good as Warne? Also Murali was a one army.

Probably, but that was pretty much my point. Looking at raw statistics Murali looks slightly better, but remove a disproportionate amount of tests against minnows who Warne hardly played against, and they're much the same

 

[honestbharani]

Personally, there are questions on his action (but it was cleared by the ICC, so here we are) , but more so it's to do with the fact that he played 25 tests against Bang and Zim, yielding almost 200 of his wickets in those games, while Warne played only 3 tests against those two nations.

The other factor is Warne was a complete master of cricket's hardest skill, while Murali was an offie.

But Warney was absolutely smashed around by the same Bangladesh. If anything, Warney filling his boots with English wickets is the easier achievement IMO.

 

[mr_mister]

But Warney was absolutely smashed around by the same Bangladesh. If anything, Warney filling his boots with English wickets is the easier achievement IMO.

Fair point due to English being dreadful at spin.

But I'm sure if he played 25 tests he would have eventually mastered Bangladesh. It's said he was never as good against skilled players of spin but he did pretty well against Sri Lanka right?

 

[Burgey]

Maybe coz of the bouncier nature of the wickets? I guess the front foot technique really took off once you started getting SC and other slower wickets around the world?

It took off because of covered wickets and helmets.

 

[Red]

But Warney was absolutely smashed around by the same Bangladesh. If anything, Warney filling his boots with English wickets is the easier achievement IMO.

11 wickets in 2 tests @ 27 (SR 47) is getting "absolutely smashed around"?

 

[Burgey]

Regarding Muralitharan, I think there is an extreme bias against him even from the cricketing community.

In the decade of 2000s alone, he took 565 Test wickets, more than what McGrath took in his entire career. He took 335 ODI wickets that decade, more than what Warne took in his ODI career.

Yet a panel of 38 “experts” decided to not have Muralitharan among even the Top 3 players of the decade.

Because deep down in places they can’t talk about owing to an inevitable mass outbreak of victim complex, they regard his action as suspect.

 

[Red]

It's said he was never as good against skilled players of spin but he did pretty well against Sri Lanka right?

This whole line of argument has always been anti-Warne furphy though.

Warne's record against India in India is pretty much identical to Murali's, as is his record against Pakistan.

And it's hardly surprising to anyone that spinners struggle more against skilled players of spin, surely?

 

[Burgey]

Was he getting him out for 180 though?

He got him about four of those times in a leg trap he had set. Bradman stopped playing the leg glance after that and he didn’t get him out again. Bradman, iirc, took that long to bin the shot because he regarded the risk of dismissal as small compared with the run scoring rewards he got from playing the shot. Basically I think he saw it more as something he could overcome easily by simply accepting he would score slower.

Essentially it’s what Smith will do with the leg slip approach to him. He’ll stop playing the ball in that area and then everyone will start scratching their heads about how to get him out again.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This whole line of argument has always been anti-Warne furphy though.

Warne's record against India in India is pretty much identical to Murali's, as is his record against Pakistan.

And it's hardly surprising to anyone that spinners struggle more against skilled players of spin, surely?

No, Murali's record against India is far better.

 

[stephen]

No, Murali's record against India is far better.

Not in India. Only in Sri Lanka (Where Warne never played India).

Warne had a better record in Sri Lanka than Murali.

 

[Logan]

England were clueless against Muralitharan.

 

[Logan]

Warne had a better record in Sri Lanka than Murali.

WHAT???????????????????

Warne
Matches : 9
Wickets : 48
Average : 20.46
SR : 39.67
5 WPI : 6

Murali
Matches : 73
Wickets : 493
Average : 19.57
SR : 50.8
5 WPI : 45

 

[honestbharani]

He is probably comparing stats from Aus Vs SL matches alone which is absolutely nonsensical given Aus was an ATG batting line up and SL during Warne's time put out one of their weakest batting line ups from memory in the noughties against them.

 

[Logan]

Warne vs Murali

Average In different countries

SA : 24 vs 26
Eng : 22 vs 19
NZ : 21 vs 20
Ind : 43 vs 45
Pak : 28 vs 25
WI : 39 vs 23
SL : 20 vs 19
Aus : 26 vs 75

SR in different countries

SA : 60 vs 60
Eng : 52 vs 48
NZ : 51 vs 52
Aus : 60 vs 131
Ind : 81 vs 86
Pak : 60 vs 56
SL : 39 vs 50
WI : 78 vs 50



Warne has a better average in Aus, SA and Ind.

Murali has a better average in Eng, NZ, Pak, SL and WI.

Statistically not much difference between them but I would choose Murali. Being able to be as good with almost no support tilts it in Murali’s favour IMO.