sunilz
International Regular
Ok he was as good as Sachin and Lara in 90s but overall he was inferior to Sachin and Lara because he lacked the ability to dominate both pace and spin as Sachin and Lara. Let's end the discussion here.
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DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread
- Thread starter Days of Grace
- Start date
Slifer
International Captain
Among west Indians I'd go:
Viv
Sobers
Lara
Headley
Kanhai
Walcott
Weekes
Lloyd
Worrell
Chanderpaul
Does he deserve to be so highly rated. Imo no but some of his performances need to considered in context. His overall record isn't bad at all. 45 plus vs all teams except Australia (39). Yes he bashed the minnows of his time but that's not unique to weekes. His only holes are away to England and Australia. He played 2 series in England, one in the famous '50 series where he did well vs a very good attack and the other vs imo a great attack where he struggled. Vs Australia in Australia most west Indians give him leeway because he was genuinely injured and had to deal with lindwall and Miller practically bodylining him in the only series he played there.
In the '90s, Sachin > Waugh > Lara for me.
Lara was too erratic in the '90s. He was more like a batsman of great innings than a great batsman. Waugh was great. He was consistent everywhere but lacked flamboyance. Sachin IMHO was in a league of his own in the '90s. The most complete batsman I have ever seen. It is sad he transformed into an accumulator in the naughties.
Lara was too erratic in the '90s. He was more like a batsman of great innings than a great batsman. Waugh was great. He was consistent everywhere but lacked flamboyance. Sachin IMHO was in a league of his own in the '90s. The most complete batsman I have ever seen. It is sad he transformed into an accumulator in the naughties.
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honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
No I rate it higher coz it was made against a better attack on a worse pitch under more pressure. Not sure what you had to smoke to read that from what I posted.
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honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
You got that he was a complete batsman based on 1 series in Windies and 1 in Aus where he did not even do all that much better than the next best? You sure you are not rating Sachin's performances that great just because they were made by Sachin?
1. Lara’s 153 was against McGrath, Gillespie, Warne and McGill.
Perera’s 153 was against Steyn, Philander, Rabada, Oliver and Maharaj.
SA’s attack was better.
P.S : In case you were wondering if Steyn was injured, Steyn took 4 wickets in the first innings.
2. A worse pitch? No.
A total of 1276 runs and 5 centuries(including Lara) were scored in Bridgetown that match.
A total of 989 runs and 1 century(by Perera) were scored in Durban that match.
3. More pressure?
Lara played at home. Perera’s was in away conditions.
An Asian team winning a test series for the first time in SA is much bigger deal IMO.
You are free to rate Lara’s innings as better. Just pointing out a few stats.
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honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I can easily show why my points are right with stats. But I will point out again, that stats in cricket without context mean nothing.
60 odd matches are more than enough to understand the quality of a player.
He had every shots in his repertoire, played them with flamboyance, did well at both home and away, played spin and pace with ease, and was extremely consistent.
So yea, I stand by my opinion that Sachin is the most complete batsman I've ever seen and he was a tier above the rest in the 90s.
Yes.
Migara
International Coach
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Burgey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
It does seem a somewhat odd conclusion to draw.
Terrific player in any event. Genuine box office.
IMO anyone who hasn't watched/followed LIVE world cricket in 80s and 90s will never be able to truly appreciate Steve Waugh's 94-95 series performance against the West Indies in the West Indies.
Just looking back at the stats and then judging Waugh's performance does zero justice.
Waugh's batting performance in that series was a defining moment in Test cricketing history.
West Indies had never lost a Test series (home or away) for nearly 15 years, and they never lost a home series for a lot longer than that. It was 100% true to say that many visiting team batsmen were terrified to tour the Windies back then.
Forget about batsmen dreaming of scoring centuries etc. Most batsmen (even good ones) would best hope for completing the series with their teeth & skulls intact first, and then their honors intact.
I remember watching Australia bat on TV in the 3rd Test in Trinidad. The pitch was wet (you could practically see batsman's reflection). Batting was so tough, Australia got bowled out for less than 150 in both innings.
In one of the innings, Waugh remained unbeaten on some 60+ (Team total of 120+ runs) taking several blows, not yielding an inch.
It was in that series the famous Ambrose-Waugh conflict happened.
For me, no words are enough to describe the psychological impact of Waugh's courage while batting in that series. The confidence it gave the Aussie team.
Just looking back at the stats and then judging Waugh's performance does zero justice.
Waugh's batting performance in that series was a defining moment in Test cricketing history.
West Indies had never lost a Test series (home or away) for nearly 15 years, and they never lost a home series for a lot longer than that. It was 100% true to say that many visiting team batsmen were terrified to tour the Windies back then.
Forget about batsmen dreaming of scoring centuries etc. Most batsmen (even good ones) would best hope for completing the series with their teeth & skulls intact first, and then their honors intact.
I remember watching Australia bat on TV in the 3rd Test in Trinidad. The pitch was wet (you could practically see batsman's reflection). Batting was so tough, Australia got bowled out for less than 150 in both innings.
In one of the innings, Waugh remained unbeaten on some 60+ (Team total of 120+ runs) taking several blows, not yielding an inch.
It was in that series the famous Ambrose-Waugh conflict happened.
For me, no words are enough to describe the psychological impact of Waugh's courage while batting in that series. The confidence it gave the Aussie team.
Flem274*
123/5
kohli was absolutely a prodigy. i watched the nz v india under 19 semi, and it was much like today 'blah blah blah kohli blah blah india are the most wonderfulest'
the fact he manages to focus on being good and force his team to be good despite everyone desperately sucking them off for bcci dollars is a credit to him ive only just thought of now.
the fact he manages to focus on being good and force his team to be good despite everyone desperately sucking them off for bcci dollars is a credit to him ive only just thought of now.
Slifer
International Captain
Thank you. Couldn't have said it any better. And don't forget the famous stare down with Ambrose in the said Trinidad test. Steve Waugh and Glenn McGrath are the two Australian cricketers of the 90s that I both admired and hated the most because imo they were the main difference between Australia winning or losing vs my WI.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This is what gets lost in the sea of numbers that Sunilz et al post.
Waugh was easily in the same class as Tendulkar in the 90s. Probably more impactful than Tendulkar even if his record had holes in it.
He was the difference between Australia beating the West Indies for the first time. He was the difference between Australia and South Africa in a number of series'.
Bringing up his record against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka as though it was important is insane. He played half a dozen tests against them and they weren't a marquee opponent.
Kohli probably deserves to be ahead of him on career but as a batsman Waugh was a decent way ahead of Dravid and about equal with Border in my mind. In fact he was the successor to Border in many ways. He was the captain Border could have been with a better side. He was very similar in batting ability to Border as well.
Days of Grace
International Captain
I'd like to but it would take a lot of work, and guesswork at that. I can do career, overall and peak at any stage in a career easily enough. But non-home and quality opposition would take a lot longer.
Days of Grace
International Captain
No.16
Sir Everton Weekes (West Indies) 833
Quality Points: 794
Career Points: 39
Career/Runs: 1948-1958, 4455 (rank 147)
Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 54.17 (58.61) 50.82 (55.00) 66.30 (58.77) (rank 4)
50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate (1948-1955): 61.61 57.91 64.92 (rank 26)
Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 45.99 45.99 65.49 (rank 25)
Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 40.98 38.19 72.72 (rank 74)
The great man is still with us and he finishes above his great contemporaries as the highest ranked W. What separates him from Walcott and Worrell, and indeed from any other batsman of his era, is his phenomenal scoring rate. The adjustment upwards in his strike-rate is reflective of this. Weekes scored a lot of his runs at home or against the weaker opponents of his day (his adjusted average is only 0.92% of his original), but the runs were still there to be made and he was utterly merciless, almost becoming the only batsman in history to score 6 consecutive test centuries. After 38 test matches and up to the tour of England in 1957, he had scored 3805 runs at 59.56 (64.49). This was after 8 years of test cricket, about the same stage that Steve Smith is at now. He retired near his peak after a thigh injury and thus he benefits in this list from having no drop-off in the twilight of his career. In addition, Weekes finished unbeaten only 5 times in 81 innings and this boosts his runs per innings average. He was the right-handed Brian Lara of his time and it is truly regrettable that almost no footage exists of him playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NVLefUG14
The Three W's Comparison
Career
Weekes 39
Walcott 38
Worrell 43
Overall
Weekes 471 (54.71)
Walcott 453 (53.06)
Worrell 402 (47.59)
Peak
Weekes 175 (61.61)
Walcott 173 (61.69)
Worrell 146 (52.08)
Non-Home
Weekes 77 (45.99)
Walcott 61 (37.29)
Worrell 72 (44.81)
Quality Opposition
Weekes 71 (40.98)
Walcott 80 (48.73)
Worrell 66 (40.40)
Final Points
Weekes 833
Walcott 806
Worrell 728
Sir Everton Weekes (West Indies) 833
Quality Points: 794
Career Points: 39
Career/Runs: 1948-1958, 4455 (rank 147)
Overall average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 54.17 (58.61) 50.82 (55.00) 66.30 (58.77) (rank 4)
50 Innings Peak Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate (1948-1955): 61.61 57.91 64.92 (rank 26)
Non-Home Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 45.99 45.99 65.49 (rank 25)
Quality Opposition Average/Runs per innings/Strike-rate: 40.98 38.19 72.72 (rank 74)
The great man is still with us and he finishes above his great contemporaries as the highest ranked W. What separates him from Walcott and Worrell, and indeed from any other batsman of his era, is his phenomenal scoring rate. The adjustment upwards in his strike-rate is reflective of this. Weekes scored a lot of his runs at home or against the weaker opponents of his day (his adjusted average is only 0.92% of his original), but the runs were still there to be made and he was utterly merciless, almost becoming the only batsman in history to score 6 consecutive test centuries. After 38 test matches and up to the tour of England in 1957, he had scored 3805 runs at 59.56 (64.49). This was after 8 years of test cricket, about the same stage that Steve Smith is at now. He retired near his peak after a thigh injury and thus he benefits in this list from having no drop-off in the twilight of his career. In addition, Weekes finished unbeaten only 5 times in 81 innings and this boosts his runs per innings average. He was the right-handed Brian Lara of his time and it is truly regrettable that almost no footage exists of him playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1NVLefUG14
The Three W's Comparison
Career
Weekes 39
Walcott 38
Worrell 43
Overall
Weekes 471 (54.71)
Walcott 453 (53.06)
Worrell 402 (47.59)
Peak
Weekes 175 (61.61)
Walcott 173 (61.69)
Worrell 146 (52.08)
Non-Home
Weekes 77 (45.99)
Walcott 61 (37.29)
Worrell 72 (44.81)
Quality Opposition
Weekes 71 (40.98)
Walcott 80 (48.73)
Worrell 66 (40.40)
Final Points
Weekes 833
Walcott 806
Worrell 728
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stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah. People forget that Waugh had a Kohli- like start to his career in the 80s. In the 90s he averaged nigh on 60 and made his runs against ridiculously strong bowling attacks worldwide. Even Australia's perennial whipping boys the English had Gough and Fraser through the era who most sides would take in a heartbeat today.
Border obviously had a huge impact on Waugh's development, mentoring him as both batsman and skipper and ultimately Waugh was able to achieve the only thing that Border had truly wanted - victory over WI.
It's hard for me to separate them as batsmen and captains in my mind. Border was like the first generation immigrants who worked hard and put food on the table while Waugh was the second generation who had the greater accomplishments. Which makes Ponting the spoilt third generation who blew it all.
Border obviously had a huge impact on Waugh's development, mentoring him as both batsman and skipper and ultimately Waugh was able to achieve the only thing that Border had truly wanted - victory over WI.
It's hard for me to separate them as batsmen and captains in my mind. Border was like the first generation immigrants who worked hard and put food on the table while Waugh was the second generation who had the greater accomplishments. Which makes Ponting the spoilt third generation who blew it all.