DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[Burgey]

The same applies to him, surely?

Jadeja averages 35 away. Ahwin 31. Not horrendous, but I'd have thought you have to be an automatic pick in your own side to be rated as highly as they have both been. Top 30 all time is rare air for anyone, let alone a bloke who might turn up to a test at any given ground on any given day and get omitted.

 

[Burgey]

FFS, Jadeja averages in the 20s in every country he played except England and NZ. On the other hand, there is another ATG who has made a career out of bullying opposition in 3 countries and then went on to average in 3 digits in some countries lol.

Well look, if you want to land him in the top 30 or 50 that's a matter for you*. I don't think he's there, but it's all opinion. He gets the job done where they play most of their tests and gets to put his feet up when it doesn't work for him. It's a great gig.
FWIW I do think he's a better bowler and cricketer than Ashwin though.

*lawyer speak for "you're wrong but I cbf."

 

[Days of Grace]

Is good everywhere equal to absolutely outstanding at home and moderate overseas?

 

[h_hurricane]

Well look, if you want to land him in the top 30 or 50 that's a matter for you*. I don't think he's there, but it's all opinion. He gets the job done where they play most of their tests and gets to put his feet up when it doesn't work for him. It's a great gig.
FWIW I do think he's a better bowler and cricketer than Ashwin though.

*lawyer speak for "you're wrong but I cbf."

I didn't land him anywhere. He was no. 30 in DoG's rating list in an objective exercise.

 

[Burgey]

It's a generic "you" rather than a specific one.

 

[Burgey]

Is good everywhere equal to absolutely outstanding at home and moderate overseas?

No it isn't. But if you are to be considered one of the top 30 test bowlers of all time, it's my personal view you shouldn't be anywhere near the frame of having the skipper walk over to you on match day and say "Listen mate, you're gonna have to sit this one out. even though you're one of the top three dozen bowlers to have ever laced up a boot in nearly 150 years of test cricket."

That, to me, is discordant. "You're an all time great bowler - here's a drinks tray" seems really contradictory.

 

[Spark]

FFS, Jadeja averages in the 20s in every country he played except England and NZ. On the other hand, there is another ATG who has made a career out of bullying opposition in 3 countries and then went on to average in 3 digits in some countries lol.

Perhaps then you should let the Indian selectors know, since they're the ones who don't rate his performance in unfamiliar conditions enough to play him consistently.

 

[h_hurricane]

Perhaps then you should let the Indian selectors know, since they're the ones who don't rate his performance in unfamiliar conditions enough to play him consistently.

Actually they have woken up for good of late and realized that they have a gem in hand. Some one good enough to score good hard fought 70s and 80s overseas and also support a very good set of pacers more than adequately.

 

[sunilz]

The problem with " you are not good enough if , you are being dropped in certain countries " logic is that imo Warne wouldn't make the playing XI of current Indian team if only one spot was available in IND, SL, BAN and WI i.e. half of the test playing countries . And a major reason for this is that both Ashwin and Jadeja are much superior batsman to Warne even if you consider them slightly inferior spinner to Warne in these countries. I have not considered Pak because neither Ashwin nor Jadeja have played there.
FTR Warne is a better spinner than both Ashwin/ Jadeja . But I consider above logic flawed.

 

[Burgey]

You’re entitled to your view and that’s fine. My own is if you aren’t an automatic pick on the team sheet each game it hard to argue you grab a spot in an ATG list over blokes who’ve toiled away in good conditions (for them) and bad.

As I said, it’s just a pov I have.

 

[Spark]

The problem with " you are not good enough if , you are being dropped in certain countries " logic is that imo Warne wouldn't make the playing XI of current Indian team if only one spot was available in IND, SL, BAN and WI i.e. half of the test playing countries . And a major reason for this is that both Ashwin and Jadeja are much superior batsman to Warne even if you consider them slightly inferior spinner to Warne in these countries. I have not considered Pak because neither Ashwin nor Jadeja have played there.
FTR Warne is a better spinner than both Ashwin/ Jadeja . But I consider above logic flawed.

That's not really it IMO. It's more that to be eligible for consideration at a higher level of selection (assuming all conditions, one should add), you have to absolutely nail down your spot at the current level of selection first. Otherwise it just introduces a huge amount of uncorrectable selection bias into his record.

It's kind of like how some all-rounders have much better bowling statistics than their actual quality of bowling would suggest because they often only bowl in really helpful conditions.

Actually they have woken up for good of late and realized that they have a gem in hand. Some one good enough to score good hard fought 70s and 80s overseas and also support a very good set of pacers more than adequately.

That might be but it really has to be nailed down for several years for that question mark to go away IMO. It might not be his "fault" per se but it's there.

 

[Burgey]

It may well be it’s a line of thought I’ll have to reconsider over time, but I just don’t get “He’s a top 50 ATG test bowler”*

*omitted for Nostrils Yadav on the morning of the second test.

Edit: spark has explained it in his last post better than I have tbh

 

[ataraxia]

Well Umesh will probably end up as India's 5th greatest pacer of all time.

 

[Spark]

Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Garner are the popular picks for WI ATG team.

Does that mean Roberts and Walsh aren’t ATGs?

It certainly should mean that picking them in the WI AT XI is a questionable proposition, which is the actual point being made.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I dont even know what you guys are arguing about anyway. No one is really saying those things dont count against jadeja as a bowler, its that they are held against him (and subcontinental spinnres in general) disproportionately when compared to other highly regarded players.

 

[Logan]

Completely misrepresented Burgey's claim but ok.

Yes. I completely misinterpreted what he said. My bad.

 

[Burgey]

Well Umesh will probably end up as India's 5th greatest pacer of all time.

Yeah but he won't be ranked in the top 30 bowlers of all time, will he? Unless he grows a third arm or something.

 

[Burgey]

I dont even know what you guys are arguing about anyway. No one is really saying those things dont count against jadeja as a bowler, its that they are held against him (and subcontinental spinnres in general) disproportionately when compared to other highly regarded players.

****ing cricket nerds, man. They're terrible.

Well that's probably right tbh, but DoG has massively over compensated imo by ranking a bloke 30th all-time who can't hold down a full time job in his own side. Like I said, I'm not saying he's a pie-chucker, but 30th all time is ****ing rare air man.

Edit: then again, this also probably proves how much more spinners are condition-reliant than pace bowlers, and reinforced my objectively true viewpoint that they're an inferior breed. So from that POV it's helpful I suppose. Come at me, *****.

 

[sunilz]

****ing cricket nerds, man. They're terrible.

Well that's probably right tbh, but DoG has massively over compensated imo by ranking a bloke 30th all-time who can't hold down a full time job in his own side. Like I said, I'm not saying he's a pie-chucker, but 30th all time is ****ing rare air man.

Edit: then again, this also probably proves how much more spinners are condition-reliant than pace bowlers, and reinforced my objectively true viewpoint that they're an inferior breed. So from that POV it's helpful I suppose. Come at me, *****.

No he hasn't . You are completely ignoring his awesome record in Asia + WI.
Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

This is a tortured stat but you will get rough idea.

 

[h_hurricane]

****ing cricket nerds, man. They're terrible.

Well that's probably right tbh, but DoG has massively over compensated imo by ranking a bloke 30th all-time who can't hold down a full time job in his own side. Like I said, I'm not saying he's a pie-chucker, but 30th all time is ****ing rare air man.

Edit: then again, this also probably proves how much more spinners are condition-reliant than pace bowlers, and reinforced my objectively true viewpoint that they're an inferior breed. So from that POV it's helpful I suppose. Come at me, *****.

Here is the country wise record for a spinner and a pace bowler. You can judge for yourself who is more condition reliant.

Spinner

Aus - 28.57
Eng - 42.37
Ind - 20.98
NZ - 85.66
SA - 25.66
SL - 28.76
WI - 25.55

Macho man

Aus - 23.73
Eng - 20.56
NZ - 22.50
Pak - 101.00
SL - 35.66
WI - played,no wickets,not good enough to have an average
Ind - not good enough to play,escaped hammering