The great 1980s all rounders

[smash84]

And England didn't loose the last test because a LBW decision also wasn't given in the penultimate over, but you do love to use that one example over and over.

With regards to "the rest of the nonsense", they are his stats. There isn't any revisiting or cherry picking. That's it. Period.

The fact that you don't like it, doesn't make it inaccurate or unfair.

Because it is one glaring example of **** umpiring in the WI. Then Viv running towards the umpiring intimidating him to give out was another. Just some top of mind umpiring that comes to mind from the WI.

So don't go around downgrading Imran's stats because **** umpiring was happening everywhere. You were probably not even born when these guys were playing.

Secondly, Hadlee was not a decent batsman. He was barely adequate. An average of 27 is really bad. It is worse than Rashid Latif and Moin Khan. And both of them, while good for the ocassional cameo, were nobody's idea of solid batsman. Heck even mitchell johnson as an average over 28. And Mitchell johnson is nobody's idea of an all rounder. Imran could be a genuine lower order batsman and could at least hold an end up.

Of course, as a bowler Hadlee > Imran. But the gulf in their batting is far greater than the gulf in their bowling for mine which is also one of the reasons why Imran gets picked ahead of Hadlee most of the time. And of course, Sir Richard himself corroborating what I am saying.

https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/imran-khan-best-all-rounder-sir-richard-hadlee-former-pakistan-skipper-kapil-dev-ian-botham-174273-2013-08-19

 

[smash84]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Viv's consistency, overall stats and his performance after the mid 1980s.
Bradman has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Sachin was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and booze in hand at the same time, Sobers has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his batting is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great batsman, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Sachin (and by extension the other top tier batsmen) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his batting stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats (67 vs 51) Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 67 in West indies, but didn't average above 54, yes 54 in another country besides lowly minnows India. He averaged 46 in Australia,53 in England, 99 in India, 15 in New Zealand and 32 in the Pakistan.
To be honest if not for his average of 83 vs India his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in West indies.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Ravi Jadeja may just be the best all rounder in cricket history with the cleanest record of them all.

You forgot to mention the real kicker. Sobers' bowling strike rate against Pakistan. 356, yes you read that right. 356

 

[harsh.ag]

It's 2012. My time machine works.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I do vaguely remember a few years ago kyear making a very similar really dumb post and me responding with a very similar dumb post only replacing every Imran with Sobers.

 

[Coronis]

Because it is one glaring example of **** umpiring in the WI. Then Viv running towards the umpiring intimidating him to give out was another. Just some top of mind umpiring that comes to mind from the WI.

So don't go around downgrading Imran's stats because **** umpiring was happening everywhere. You were probably not even born when these guys were playing.

Secondly, Hadlee was not a decent batsman. He was barely adequate. An average of 27 is really bad. It is worse than Rashid Latif and Moin Khan. And both of them, while good for the ocassional cameo, were nobody's idea of solid batsman. Heck even mitchell johnson as an average over 28. And Mitchell johnson is nobody's idea of an all rounder. Imran could be a genuine lower order batsman and could at least hold an end up.

Of course, as a bowler Hadlee > Imran. But the gulf in their batting is far greater than the gulf in their bowling for mine which is also one of the reasons why Imran gets picked ahead of Hadlee most of the time. And of course, Sir Richard himself corroborating what I am saying.

https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/imran-khan-best-all-rounder-sir-richard-hadlee-former-pakistan-skipper-kapil-dev-ian-botham-174273-2013-08-19

Correct, his bowling average.

 

[trundler]

Love the speculation and lord knows I love the attention but I've just started A levels and my college is in another city. Was making an effort to slow down. Now is as good an occasion as any to randomly drop the fact that I got an A* in my English O' Level.

 

[smash84]

Correct, his bowling average.

My bad. You are right. that is his bowling average.

But at least I have moin khan and rashid latif averages down right. They're both above 28.

 

[trundler]

Main ye samajhne se qasir hun kay mujh par Pakistani na hone ka betukka o bemaqsad ilzam kyun lagaya ja raha hai? Bhala iss se mujhe kya mafaad hasil hosakta ho mujhe maloom nahin lehaza main iss behuda unwaan par mazeed izhare raye se gurez karun ga.

I'll let the other 2 Pakistanis translate this.

 

[trundler]

Also, Younis > Dravid

 

[h_hurricane]

You can turn down the certificate for quality posting from CW posters, but never let go the college certificate. A word of advise

 

[kyear2]

Because it is one glaring example of **** umpiring in the WI. Then Viv running towards the umpiring intimidating him to give out was another. Just some top of mind umpiring that comes to mind from the WI.

So don't go around downgrading Imran's stats because **** umpiring was happening everywhere. You were probably not even born when these guys were playing.

Secondly, Hadlee was not a decent batsman. He was barely adequate. An average of 27 is really bad. It is worse than Rashid Latif and Moin Khan. And both of them, while good for the ocassional cameo, were nobody's idea of solid batsman. Heck even mitchell johnson as an average over 28. And Mitchell johnson is nobody's idea of an all rounder. Imran could be a genuine lower order batsman and could at least hold an end up.

Of course, as a bowler Hadlee > Imran. But the gulf in their batting is far greater than the gulf in their bowling for mine which is also one of the reasons why Imran gets picked ahead of Hadlee most of the time. And of course, Sir Richard himself corroborating what I am saying.

https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/imran-khan-best-all-rounder-sir-richard-hadlee-former-pakistan-skipper-kapil-dev-ian-botham-174273-2013-08-19

My issue is how is a batting average of 27 barely adequate. He is batting at no. 8, so we need someone averaging 50 down there?
It's like saying Kallis wasn't a good enough all-rounder because he didn't average 25 with the ball.

The primary role of the bowling all rounder is to bowl, objective being bowl out the other team for as little as possible. His ability to add a bit with the bat is just a bonus. So again how is 27 inadequate. So while I agree that the gulf between the batting is larger than the bowling, why not go with the better bowler when they can both offer enough with the bat.
Similarly Kallis, Sobers, Hammond etc are more than adequate bowlers considering that ideally they are coming in as just the 5th option.

 

[kyear2]

I do vaguely remember a few years ago kyear making a very similar really dumb post and me responding with a very similar dumb post only replacing every Imran with Sobers.

I will give you half your statement as your post was incredibly dumb.

My post was applicable to the thread and was making a case for Hadlee being the best all rounder of the decade based purely on stats. I was also clear to state I still rate Imran top 15, at worst top 20 among the best bowlers of all time. Wasn't partisan trolling as yours was purely based.

My issue with Imran 2asnt that there were holes in his record, it's that his stats just weren't top tier anywhere but home. I will and did add that his avg in the Caribbean wasn't bad, but again away from home his numbers while great just doesn't out him in the top tier of bowlers.

So instead of trolling and bring in a player from my country compare him to the other bowlers of his era and afterwards. And btw I will gladly state that behind Hadlee, Imran has no real peer as a bowling allrounder with the closest thereafter being his country man, Davidson, Pollock etc.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

What are you talking about? "As things stand now"? What does that even mean?



You clearly know how to use statsguru, but have no knowledge of the game and its history. Nor do you have any knowledge of Miller's career, and you could just read his bio on cricinfo to see what you don't even understand. He was a FC batsman (and a fkn good one), and was initially selected as a batsman in the test team. He basically became an opening bowler because they needed one, and he became one of the best.



Ok. What's your point?

1. My point is , nobody combined ATG bowling + 35 ish avg batting for an entire career in the history of game.
2. I said Miller was not an ATG bowler .in response, you posted reasons that stopped him from being an ATG bowler.
3. If you have detailed stats for Miller's bowling career in FC , Pls share it . I don't think , he averaged anywhere near 4 wpm. ( Even if you exclude his" batting only" matches)

 

[AndrewB]

What are you talking about? "As things stand now"? What does that even mean?



You clearly know how to use statsguru, but have no knowledge of the game and its history. Nor do you have any knowledge of Miller's career, and you could just read his bio on cricinfo to see what you don't even understand. He was a FC batsman (and a fkn good one), and was initially selected as a batsman in the test team.

Certainly he was a FC batsman before he took up bowling seriously, but he took 2 wickets in his first Test* and opened the bowling with Lindwall (taking 9-77) in his second Test.

*and technically that wasn't officially declared a Test until 2 years later.

 

[TheJediBrah]

My issue is how is a batting average of 27 barely adequate. He is batting at no. 8, so we need someone averaging 50 down there?

I'm just jumping in here, but pretty sure we're talking about all-rounders, in which case an average of 27 is pretty ordinary. Yes it's fine for a number 8, but that doesn't mean it's "adequate" to be considered a genuine all-rounder.

It's like saying Nathan Lyon is a great all-rounder because he averages 12 at no. 11 and an average of 12 is good for a number 11.

 

[stephen]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Viv's consistency, overall stats and his performance after the mid 1980s.
Bradman has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Sachin was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and booze in hand at the same time, Sobers has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Well he was no David Boon.

 

[smash84]

My issue is how is a batting average of 27 barely adequate. He is batting at no. 8, so we need someone averaging 50 down there?
It's like saying Kallis wasn't a good enough all-rounder because he didn't average 25 with the ball.

The primary role of the bowling all rounder is to bowl, objective being bowl out the other team for as little as possible. His ability to add a bit with the bat is just a bonus. So again how is 27 inadequate. So while I agree that the gulf between the batting is larger than the bowling, why not go with the better bowler when they can both offer enough with the bat.
Similarly Kallis, Sobers, Hammond etc are more than adequate bowlers considering that ideally they are coming in as just the 5th option.

So if you agree that the gulf between their batting is larger than the difference between their bowling then the choice is simple. Instead of Hadlee you take a bowler who is close enough in bowling skill, yet a much better batsman. Ideally I'd put both Imran and Hadlee in my ATXI but if I had to put an all rounder then Imran shades it. Sir Richard will probably add more to the side than McGrath will and so I'd have Imran, Hadlee and Marshall as my 3 pacers with Warne as the spinner. This team will bat down to 11.

The idea is to strengthen the batting and bowling prowess of the team as much as possible. With Imran you get a slightly inferior bowling but a significantly better batting.

 

[aussie tragic]

The funny thing about all this ATG talk this thread has turned into, is that none of the fab 4 are likely to make a World ATG XI.

There are clearly 3 better ATG fast bowlers and 6 better ATG batsmen, of which Sobers is one to serve as the allrounder.

They will all make their countries ATG teams though, as will Miller for Aus.

 

[kyear2]

I'm just jumping in here, but pretty sure we're talking about all-rounders, in which case an average of 27 is pretty ordinary. Yes it's fine for a number 8, but that doesn't mean it's "adequate" to be considered a genuine all-rounder.

It's like saying Nathan Lyon is a great all-rounder because he averages 12 at no. 11 and an average of 12 is good for a number 11.

But that's where he is going to actually bat. And if you are batting at 8, your primary job is to bowl.

And we need to let go of the notion of genuine all rounders, for the most part they don't exist with the best two examples being Miller and Botham and with both of those options comes compromises.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But that's where he is going to actually bat. And if you are batting at 8, your primary job is to bowl.

And we need to let go of the notion of genuine all rounders, for the most part they don't exist with the best two examples being Miller and Botham and with both of those options comes compromises.

But isn't the whole point of the topic comparing them as genuine all rounders? If so, then it's entirely relevant to point out that Hadlee was lacking as a batsman in comparison