Where does Dale Steyn stack up historically

[Logan]

Unpopular Opinion : I rate Donald higher than Ambrose in Tests. I always felt Donald was better wicket taking bowler than Ambrose.

 

[Logan]

One reason I wouldn’t rate McGrath ahead of Steyn was his record in Asia. The dead pitches of the subcontinent are the greatest challenge to any fast bowler. Statistically, there wasn’t much difference between them. As someone who watched their entire career, Steyn always felt as someone who could single handedly win match even in those dead pitches while McGrath didn’t feel that way.

Steyn has 5 five wicket hauls in 22 Tests in Asian pitches while McGrath has 1 five wicket haul in 19 Test matches in Asian pitches.

 

[ankitj]

I don't think anyone's using it as a real measure though. It's just an interesting stat that can tell a story about a player, their team and the relation between them. No one's claiming that it's a decisive measure of how good a player is.

Wrong stats are not interesting.

 

[h_hurricane]

Unpopular Opinion : I rate Donald higher than Ambrose in Tests. I always felt Donald was better wicket taking bowler than Ambrose.

I personally rate Ambrose higher(the reason being he had a more rounded record in most places), but would not have a problem with anyone rating Donald this high. After all we are talking about 2 of the greatest bowlers of all time. Donald missing 3-4 good years in the early part of his career is a tragedy though, and who knows, many possibly would have rated him as high as Marshall if he had played those years.

 

[TheJediBrah]

One reason I wouldn’t rate McGrath ahead of Steyn was his record in Asia. The dead pitches of the subcontinent are the greatest challenge to any fast bowler. Statistically, there wasn’t much difference between them. As someone who watched their entire career, Steyn always felt as someone who could single handedly win match even in those dead pitches while McGrath didn’t feel that way.

Steyn has 5 five wicket hauls in 22 Tests in Asian pitches while McGrath has 1 five wicket haul in 19 Test matches in Asian pitches.

McGrath averages 23 in Asia, Steyn averages 24.

And among those McGrath played all but 3 games against either India or Pakistan (never played Bangladesh)
Steyn played 4 matches against Bangladesh and a lot more against Sri Lanka (who tbf weren't that bad most of the time)

But you go and pick "number of 5 wicket hauls" as if it's somehow a decisive factor. I don't want to invalidate your feelings but objectively a pretty ordinary post tbh

 

[OverratedSanity]

His point was that Steyn was more likely to completely run through a lineup in those conditions while Mcgrath was probably a bit more consistently threatening which is fair enough. Steyn produced 3-4 spells on the subcontinent the likes of which I've never seen from an overseas pacer.

 

[Daemon]

McGrath averages 23 in Asia, Steyn averages 24.

And among those McGrath played all but 3 games against either India or Pakistan (never played Bangladesh)
Steyn played 4 matches against Bangladesh and a lot more against Sri Lanka (who tbf weren't that bad most of the time)

But you go and pick "number of 5 wicket hauls" as if it's somehow a decisive factor. I don't want to invalidate your feelings but objectively a pretty ordinary post tbh

McGrath averaged 36 against SL in SL, so if he had played more his average would've been worse. Likewise for Bangladesh imo. Habibul would've sent him home crying.

 

[Logan]

McGrath averages 23 in Asia, Steyn averages 24.

And among those McGrath played all but 3 games against either India or Pakistan (never played Bangladesh)
Steyn played 4 matches against Bangladesh and a lot more against Sri Lanka (who tbf weren't that bad most of the time)

But you go and pick "number of 5 wicket hauls" as if it's somehow a decisive factor

1. I did mention both Steyn and McGrath are somewhat statistically similar in Asian pitches.

McGrath averages 23 while Steyn averages 24.

Steyn’s SR is 42 while McGrath’s SR is 55.

What I did say was Steyn was more dangerous because he could produce spells that could make a HUGE difference.

2. You are absolutely wrong to tell that Steyn got any of his five wicket hauls against Bangladesh.

For your information:
McGrath:
1. Zero Five Wicket Haul n 8 Tests in India
2. Zero Five Wicket Haul in 4 Tests in SL
3. One Five Wicket Haul in 5 Tests in Pak

Steyn
1. Two Five Wicket Haul in 6 Tests in India
2. One Five Wicket Haul in 2 Tests in Pak
3. Two Wicket Haul in in 6 Tests in SL


3. Yes, Five Wickets Haul are important. It is one of the indicators that a bowler can win a match single handedly.

For example : Steyn’s spell of 5-23 in Ahmedabad or Marshall’s spell of 8-60 in Kanpur or Steyn’s spell of 7-51 in Nagpur are great examples of fast bowling in India.

 

[Slifer]

Tbh this whole Asia is toughest to be a fast bowler stuff is nonsense imo. The toughest place to succeed as a fast bowler is Australia (obviously for non Australian bowlers). India's wickets for example take better to spin but Indians are unchallenged in their ability to play spin. India can't be both tough for spinners and fast bowlers, that is not logical.
Australia is the same for fast bowlers as india imo. And virtually most good to great fast bowlers of recent times have struggled in Australia vs their performance in the sub continent. Ex: Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Akram, Imran, Walsh. Then there are the bowlers who struggled in both like Waqar, Anderson, Shoaib etc..

 

[vcs]

Tim Southee has more 5-ers in Asia than McGrath trollololol (just to annoy TJB).

 

[OverratedSanity]

Tbh this whole Asia is toughest to be a fast bowler stuff is nonsense imo. The toughest place to succeed as a fast bowler is Australia (obviously for non Australian bowlers). India's wickets for example take better to spin but Indians are unchallenged in their ability to play spin. India can't be both tough for spinners and fast bowlers, that is not logical.
Australia is the same for fast bowlers as india imo. And virtually most good to great fast bowlers of recent times have struggled in Australia vs their performance in the sub continent. Ex: Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Akram, Imran, Walsh. Then there are the bowlers who struggled in both like Waqar, Anderson, Shoaib etc..

The subcontinent is generally tougher to get wickets on as a pacer since the wickets are slower and there's less lateral movement on offer. This isn't very complicated.

 

[vcs]

If your batsmen can put your team in a good position, it can also be a better place to bowl on the 4th/5th day compared to, let's say, an NZ or a flat Australian pitch though (uneven bounce and deterioration). Depends.

 

[OverratedSanity]

If your batsmen can put your team in a good position, it can also be a better place to bowl on the 4th/5th day compared to, let's say, an NZ or a flat Australian pitch though (uneven bounce and deterioration). Depends.

That's why I said "generally". Sure there are situations where it can be good for pacers but overall to pretend it isn't a tougher place to bowl in for a quick would be daft. Although in recent years, Australian pitches have been just as if not more challenging.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Not saying it has always been the case, but Australia isn't a pleasant place to come as a visiting fast bowler of recent times. The pitches are generally fairly docile and our batsman for the most part have been raised on good pace bowling, hence usually play it pretty well

Not so much last summer though, weakest Australian batting lineup in my lifetime.

 

[TheJediBrah]

1. I did mention both Steyn and McGrath are somewhat statistically similar in Asian pitches.

McGrath averages 23 while Steyn averages 24.

Steyn’s SR is 42 while McGrath’s SR is 55.

What I did say was Steyn was more dangerous because he could produce spells that could make a HUGE difference.

2. You are absolutely wrong to tell that Steyn got any of his five wicket hauls against Bangladesh.

For your information:
McGrath:
1. Zero Five Wicket Haul n 8 Tests in India
2. Zero Five Wicket Haul in 4 Tests in SL
3. One Five Wicket Haul in 5 Tests in Pak

Steyn
1. Two Five Wicket Haul in 6 Tests in India
2. One Five Wicket Haul in 2 Tests in Pak
3. Two Wicket Haul in in 6 Tests in SL


3. Yes, Five Wickets Haul are important. It is one of the indicators that a bowler can win a match single handedly.

For example : Steyn’s spell of 5-23 in Ahmedabad or Marshall’s spell of 8-60 in Kanpur or Steyn’s spell of 7-51 in Nagpur are great examples of fast bowling in India.

I never said Steyn got any of his 5-wicket hauls against Bangladesh. And why are you still talking about 5 wicket hauls? It's a somewhat interesting stat but it doesn't really actually mean anything, objectively. If 2 players have similar stats but one has much more 5-wicket hauls is vastly more likely just an indication of the strength and effectiveness of the rest of the attack. Claiming that it means a bowler is more likely to win a match for his team is very short-sighted.

Tbh this whole Asia is toughest to be a fast bowler stuff is nonsense imo.

And this too.

@ Logan, as I said I'm not trying to discredit your feelings or opinions, which of course are valid. Everyone has a right to them. Just pointing out (maybe unnecessarily, I'll admit) that: 1) no. of 5-wicket hauls and, 2) bowling in Asia alone, are not really even close to definitive stats to judge a bowler on, objectively speaking.

 

[vcs]

It's a curious stat. Like Dhoni not having any centuries away from Asia (though he averages pretty well in most places, still). Useful to twist around if you don't like the player.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's a curious stat. Like Dhoni not having any centuries away from Asia (though he averages pretty well in most places, still). Useful to twist around if you don't like the player.

Absolutely. I've got so many of these to discredit Murali you wouldn't believe

 

[Daemon]

Some useful stats

McGrath has only taken 3 wickets in 4 innings against Bangladesh. After SA and NZ, his worst record against any team is against Bangladesh
Steyn averages 14 against batting lineups with Tendulkar in them
McGrath averages 37(!) in matches where his fellow bowlers have <300 wickets between them
Steyn's strike rate in draws batting first is less than half of McGrath's in the same

I'll let you draw your own conclusions

 

[StephenZA]

Donald is not underrated by people; at least not here in SA. Donald phenomenal performances are not forgotten but the even greater phenomenal performances by Steyn outrank him. Unfortunate for him if he had a huge ego; fortunately he does not and is more effusive of Steyn than most greats.

On the 'makes no difference' for fast bowlers in sub-continent is silly. Because you are talking about the fact that you need different skills to bowl in subcontinent versus the other parts of world. When you as a great bowler can change and use your skills to bowl anywhere with great success it makes a difference in how you will be rated.

And I still rank Steyn higher than McGrath, if for no other reason than I can't let the Aussie patriotism take control of the narrative.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And I still rank Steyn higher than McGrath, if for no other reason than I can't let the Aussie patriotism take control of the narrative.

That's great, diversity and all. Aussie stephen probably ranks Jackson Bird higher than Steyn so fair play.