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Are Rohit and Kohli bottlers in ODI knockouts?
- Thread starter Amirfan
- Start date
TheJediBrah
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In the context of this forum, a Pakistani sunilz is great fun
cnerd123
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it's not what's being said, it's whose saying it and how they're saying it that's annoying everyone.
My 2 cents:
If you use WC Semi-Finals and Finals as the be-all metric for whether or not a batsman is a 'bottler', then the stats prove that Kohli and Rohit are under par. Sure.
However, I don't necessarily agree with this definition of 'pressure' game. Surely there are non WC semi-finals/finals that, to the batsman, carry a significant amount of weight as well. I struggle to think of any examples off the top of my head for these two, but I won't be surprised if there are innings they have played where they felt they were under tremendous pressure to perform, even if it isn't obvious to us watching. It is also possible they walked out to bat vs NZ being complacent, thinking they had a simple run-chase ahead of them, and that the hard work had been done on the field. I do not know for sure, but I think these possibilities should be considered, and a slightly broader definition of 'pressure games' should be used.
Secondly, I don't think it's 'bottling' if a technical flaw in your game gets exposed. Rohit Sharma has offered an early opportunity in 4 or 5 other innings this WC, and they were mostly not taken. This time around, it was. He's also not the first batsman you would pick to see off a spell of accurate fast medium outswing bowling in the channel. As for Virat Kohli, he's been caught LBW playing across his pads a lot. We could see a Boult inswinger trapping him in front from a mile away. The fact that he fell in such a manner does not indicate he choked under pressure, atleast to me. They both got good balls targeted at their weaknesses. It was high quality bowling and they just weren't good enough to see it out that day. This same thing happened in the zero pressure atmosphere of a warmup game. Sometimes it's just a bad style match-up, and there is very little you can do about it. Credit has to go to Henry and Boult for being basically perfect in their execution.
TheJediBrah
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in all seriousness, IMO, performing specifically in pressure games is maybe 5% aptitude for the occasion and 95% luck
vcs
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Couldn't agree more. Especially when you are talking of sample sizes of, literally 1% of a player's career, going by CW's definition of pressure games*
* WC knockout games against teams I don't count as minnows on a tough pitch against a good attack**
** - defined as an attack that manages to dismiss the player I'm trying to bring down
Amirfan
School Boy/Girl Captain
Harsh, you seem a lot more reasonable than the likes of ***** so please hear me out.
When I said ODI knockouts, I clearly meant CT/WC knockouts, not Asia Cup come on now!
Re. The Bangladesh thing it is not cherry picking. They are a terrible side period. One off wins here and there mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even Scotland and Ireland have beaten England on a good day so what? Will Bangladesh win full series against full strength India, England, Aus, NZ, Pak etc? Pointing to a random 4 match streak is neither here nor there when 3 of those came 3 years back. Order was restored at this WC.
When people talk about Tendulkar in knockouts nobody mentions Kenya 03. They talk about SL 96, Aus 11, Pak 11 (and his detractors about Aus 03, SL 11). Why is that?!
It is a legit point that Kohli and Rohit have been vulnerable in the big games. Small sample size sure but given how good these players are otherwise it does become a talking about. In the CT F and NZ semi Kohli at least looked visibly nervous. And again that's to do with what I said earlier- there's a difference facing Mortaza and Boult/Amir/Johnson Inna big game and knowing what's on the line.
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cnerd123
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They already have you idiot
India tour of Bangladesh 2015
South Africa tour of Bangladesh 2015
New Zealand tour of Bangladesh 2013/14
All three countries have not toured BD since those defeats.
BD has also won home and away ODI series vs the West Indies, as well as a tri-series including the West Indies and Ireland right before the WC
Oh, and also this gem:
Pakistan tour of Bangladesh 2015
Another country who has avoided touring BD since being humiliated.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You're flat out wrong about Bangladesh. They are a good side. "Order was restored at this WC." - This line goes to show that you've a very Pakistan centric view of the world. All this World Cup has done is show just how good Bangladesh are and you've ended up with the opposite conclusion. Just because they lost to Pakistan, your vision of order was restored.
"It is a legit point that Kohli and Rohit have been vulnerable in the big games." - I have no problem with you saying this line and there may be something to it. But you didn't. You said they were bottlers. There is little evidence to support that outside of them failing in a couple of knockout games.
"It is a legit point that Kohli and Rohit have been vulnerable in the big games." - I have no problem with you saying this line and there may be something to it. But you didn't. You said they were bottlers. There is little evidence to support that outside of them failing in a couple of knockout games.
cnerd123
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Fun fact - since 2013, Bangladesh are 4-2 ahead of Pakistan in head to head ODI results.
Since 2013, BD's record in all ODIs reads 103-50-48-0-5 (P-W-L-T-NR). Win % of 48.5
Pakistan's record in all ODIs reads 147-66-76-2-3. Win % of 44.9
And yet BD are the minnows apparently. Go figure.
Since 2013, BD's record in all ODIs reads 103-50-48-0-5 (P-W-L-T-NR). Win % of 48.5
Pakistan's record in all ODIs reads 147-66-76-2-3. Win % of 44.9
And yet BD are the minnows apparently. Go figure.
Burner
International Regular
While Kohli was definitely jittery I thought Rohit did nothing wrong against NZ. He played his natural game but just happened to get a really good ball. Didn't even go chasing the ball iirc, was a little bit unlucky as well as that ball would miss the bat 8/10 times.
Amirfan
School Boy/Girl Captain
Bottlers = more vulnerable....let's not argue on semantics.
So how good were Bangladesh this WC? Smashed by India, smashed by Pakistan, destroyed by England and soundly beaten by Australia. Lost close game to NZ.
I ask again, if a full series were to happen today against full strength teams of those sides, would Bangladesh win? Until they consistently win series and/or a big tournament, they are minnows. End of.
Amirfan
School Boy/Girl Captain
I can agree with this. Rohit definitely got a peach and he's had dropped chances all tournament. Kohli definitely was nervous though and it showed.
In Kohli's defence I think his 30 odd as a 22 year old in 2011 final and CT 2013 final and World T20 knocks show that he isn't that bad. Perhaps captaincy is getting to him. I remember an Asia Cup game where Pakistan won with Afridi hitting 2 sixes in the last over in which Kohli was captain as Dhoni was not playing. He was visibly nervous and got out in single digits. Sharma did well in that match if I remember.
Bijed
International Regular
Yeah, a batsman may or may not be up for the occasion, but copping a good ball early on doesn't prove anything either way. Given the pretty small number of 'pressure' matches most batsmen will play over their career, it's entirely possible for bad luck + small sample size to distort the picture
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bottler means a person with little mental strength or resilience. That's not the same thing as being more vulnerable. This isn't semantics.
If the series were to be held in Bangladesh, literally no one would be surprised if Bangladesh won the series. You don't have to take my word for it. Just take a look at the bet market odds.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Rohit(in ODIs) and Virat have been brilliant cricketers for years now. A decent sample of poor shows in knockout games in ODIs means they are clearly not GOATs. In Rohit's case he may not be GOAT opener regardless of what he does from now on. Kohli of course has more time left to chase Richards who is indisputably the GOAT ODI batsman at this time.
What is sickening to see is people merely focusing on these failures to bring down the players they do not like regardless of what else they achieved. This is a regular phenemenon in PP,ICF etc but sadly the infection has spread to CW.
What is sickening to see is people merely focusing on these failures to bring down the players they do not like regardless of what else they achieved. This is a regular phenemenon in PP,ICF etc but sadly the infection has spread to CW.
cnerd123
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Actually a lot of us here are big believers of a player's greatness can not get worse as long as they keep playing. It either stays the same or gets enhanced. It's why we think Tendulkar is so clearly the second greatest batsman alive.
Rohit and Kohli have been very impressive no doubt, but honestly they have so much more left to prove. A big performance in a WC KO game could have been just that. Shame it didn't come off.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Another revealing stat.
From the beginning of 2018, BD's record in ODIs 35-20-15-0-0 Win % 57.14
Pak's record in the same period 41-15-24-0-2 Win % 38.46 (after ignoring no results matches).
Clearly BD have been a notch above Pak in ODIs for a good length of time now.