CricketWeb decides the Greatest Players Post World War I

[Bolo]

Considering all formats, I have decided to change my initial list based on the below criteria.

a) Weightage to test cricket - 80%, ODIs - 20%, T20s ignored.
b) Players who have not played ODIs are rated based on tests only. This will not unfairly affect them when compared to another player inferior to them in tests but a great/very good ODI player.
For instance, Hayden and G. Smith will still be behind Hutton inspite of pretty good ODI records.
c) Being a great test player is a necessary condition but not a sufficient one. Bevan, Dhoni etc fall short.

1. Garry Sobers
2. Donald Bradman
3. Viv Richards
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Muttiah Muralitharan
6. Glenn Mcgrath
7. Imran Khan
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Shane Warne
10.Adam Gilchrist
11.Wasim Akram
12.Malcolm Marshall
13.Jacques Kallis
14.Curtly Ambrose
15.Brian Lara
16.Virat Kohli
17.Kapil Dev
18.Shaun Pollock
19.Joel Garner
20.Keith Miller
21.Ian Botham
22.Jack Hobbs
23.Sunil Gavaskar
24.Walter Hammond
25.Len Hutton

Joel Garner comes in and Greg Chappell goes out from my initial list. Other 24 players remain the same with some changes in order.

Same logic as mine and same picks, except where i have been inconsistent and allowed influence on the game to play a role.

Marshall, Hobbs and your bottom three are also inconsistent. I pucked the same bottom three and not pucking Marshall must be stupid, so fair enough.

I reckon hobbs is wrong though. Plenty of people picking him, but we are excluding 1905-1919. Top 5 for me on full career, but like warne a piece isnt enough. I'd sooner pick someone like g pollock. Get a truncated but spectacular test career, but at least you include decades of spectacular in FC, which is half the reason to pick hobbs. Not that i think you should pick g pollock, but i want to. He is one of the few whose domestic career counts for more than his international

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I didn't want to keep a huge amount of difference between him and Kallis. I see in your ranking Kallis is 12 places below Sobers - why is that?

Although his batting is generally underrated outside CW, I think we in CW tend to overrate his batting ever so slightly.

Tendulkar is 3rd and Viv is 5th in your list , yet Dravid or Flower not in your list. Why is that ?

 

[h_hurricane]

Same logic as mine and same picks, except where i have been inconsistent and allowed influence on the game to play a role.

Marshall, Hobbs and your bottom three are also inconsistent. I pucked the same bottom three and not pucking Marshall must be stupid, so fair enough.

I reckon hobbs is wrong though. Plenty of people picking him, but we are excluding 1905-1919. Top 5 for me on full career, but like warne a piece isnt enough. I'd sooner pick someone like g pollock. Get a truncated but spectacular test career, but at least you include decades of spectacular in FC, which is half the reason to pick hobbs. Not that i think you should pick g pollock, but i want to. He is one of the few whose domestic career counts for more than his international

Hobbs played 33 test matches since 1919, scored close to 3000 runs at an average of 57. He was 37 at the beginning of this period and retired at 48 ! Considering his age during this period, it is a tremendous achievement even in an amateur era. A direct comparison with Pollock may not be apple to apple because Pollock played his last test match at 26. I have seen Graeme bat at 50 and he was awesome even at that age, but not sure if I could rate him based on his FC stats. Pollock, Richards and Proctor are possibly the most "what could have been" cricketers ever, but unfortunately one needs to leave them there.

If I have to leave out Hobbs due to a rigid criteria, I would pick Ponting though. Long career, great record across both formats (with a few holes like most others), 71 hundreds across tests and ODIs !

Gavaskar, Hammond and Hutton just about surpass Ponting imo even after giving 20% weightage to ODIs. He comes very close though and I would not have any problem with any one rating him above these 3.

Marshall was the best test match bowler ever imo, so much so that any weightage in ODIs does not bring him below the first 10-12.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Hes 38 bat and 21 bowling in list A. Both seem a bit low. List A only invented at the tail end of his career, which could have produced some oddities. And maybe he was playing in a bowler friendly country. Anyone know any details on his list A career?

Your numbers feel right, but those are big batting numbers. That's sachin only. A long way ahead of lara. It's a lot to expect.

Lara's top order stats equals Sachin's .
Lara is the highest rated ODi batsman in 90s . Check Odi batting rankings.. Lara was number 1 since 1993 untill he started batting lower order in 1999 . 6 years.
Bevens AVG was 55 ish in late 90s , so it's not just Sachin. And Sobers matching Sachin is a reasonable expectation.

 

[Bolo]

Lara's top order stats equals Sachin's .
Lara is the highest rated ODi batsman in 90s . Check Odi batting rankings.. Lara was number 1 since 1993 untill he started batting lower order in 1999 . 6 years.
Bevens AVG was 55 ish in late 90s , so it's not just Sachin. And Sobers matching Sachin is a reasonable expectation.

Im not trying to shutdown your prediction. I feel like s famously agressive best bat of his generation should be able to post some big numbers. But 11000 runs 45@ 85 was only tenduklar. Bevan is far fewer runs at lower sr. You need to look at laras career, not peak. Even then he managed less than 11k. And that was 40 @ 80 or so. Big step up.

Lara is probably the most comparable to sobers in style. Lara not so clearly the king of his era though. Perhaps sobers was better and would do better in odis. I want to believe, but those are still big numbers. Anyway, im still curious about sobers list a stats. Not that i think they are representative. Viv averaged 42 in list a afair. I'm just curious

 

[weldone]

Tendulkar is 3rd and Viv is 5th in your list , yet Dravid or Flower not in your list. Why is that ?

Because difference between Tendulkar and Flower is 26 times more than the difference between Sobers and Kallis.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Im not trying to shutdown your prediction. I feel like s famously agressive best bat of his generation should be able to post some big numbers. But 11000 runs 45@ 85 was only tenduklar. Bevan is far fewer runs at lower sr. You need to look at laras career, not peak. Even then he managed less than 11k. And that was 40 @ 80 or so. Big step up.

Lara is probably the most comparable to sobers in style. Lara not so clearly the king of his era though. Perhaps sobers was better and would do better in odis. I want to believe, but those are still big numbers. Anyway, im still curious about sobers list a stats. Not that i think they are representative. Viv averaged 42 in list a afair. I'm just curious

Lara's 40 at 80 is not the indication of his ability. He was world's best when used properly (top order) , Lara Batting lower order was a mistake .
40 at 80 club is for the guys like Anwar , Mark Waugh , De Silva..etc

And Sobers can bat at anywhere.

Lara's peak (or when he was used properly) is arguably best of all-time, or at least closer to that. Averaging 46/47 at close to 80 when there were plenty of great bowlers is amazing , add to that he consistently topped Batting rankings. Undisputed number 1 for most of the decade. Yet we rate Sachin as the best odi bat of 90s by a huge margin.
I am ok with Sachin being number 1 but not ok with Lara not in the same league at least in 90s.
"People rates Sachin by his 00's performance, people forgot how amazing he was in 90s" is a popular complaint. And rightly so. But it's more suited to Lara's ODi career.

And Yes, We need to check List A history.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Because difference between Tendulkar and Flower is 26 times more than the difference between Sobers and Kallis.

But the number of people , who thinks Kallis is Flower to Sobers the Tendulkar are 260 times more than the number of people who thinks opposite.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Personally , I will have all the great allrounders below Sobers and above Kallis and Pollock.

Sobers
Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham
Miller
Kallis
Clive Rice
Pollock

 

[mr_mister]

Sobers List A stats are pretty good at first glance.

 

[Bolo]

Lara's 40 at 80 is not the indication of his ability. He was world's best when used properly (top order) , Lara Batting lower order was a mistake .
40 at 80 club is for the guys like Anwar , Mark Waugh , De Silva..etc

And Sobers can bat at anywhere.

Lara's peak (or when he was used properly) is arguably best of all-time, or at least closer to that. Averaging 46/47 at close to 80 when there were plenty of great bowlers is amazing , add to that he consistently topped Batting rankings. Undisputed number 1 for most of the decade. Yet we rate Sachin as the best odi bat of 90s by a huge margin.
I am ok with Sachin being number 1 but not ok with Lara not in the same league at least in 90s.
"People rates Sachin by his 00's performance, people forgot how amazing he was in 90s" is a popular complaint. And rightly so. But it's more suited to Lara's ODi career.

And Yes, We need to check List A history.

I cant remember lara opening. I know his test average, his odi average and his odi batting position all dropped at the same time. Idk the relationship.

In general i think more efficient grinders are better suited to opening. Creativity can lead to trouble. Its how he often got out. The ability to play any ball any way makes you unstoppable when on song, but its dangerous when it messes with rhythm if you actually need to decide something. Got himself out when a worse bat would be ok by automatically playing simply. If opening helped this, i could see it working. I feel loke this was the defining strength and weakness of his game. Only havr memory from the middle though. Just guessing

 

[Bolo]

Personally , I will have all the great allrounders below Sobers and above Kallis and Pollock.

Sobers
Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham
Miller
Kallis
Clive Rice
Pollock

I assume this is ranked on ability somehow? Purely for test? How are you deciding how good these guys are?

 

[TestMatch]

I cant remember lara opening.

Lara was the top ICC ranked ODI batsman 5 years in a row in the 90s. Then he stopped opening and his average started dropping.

 

[Bolo]

Lara was the top ICC ranked ODI batsman 5 years in a row in the 90s. Then he stopped opening and his average started dropping.

Ýa. I'm saying i don't remember watching him open. I remember his rank dropping. Around the same time his test average started dropping

 

[sunilz]

Lara isn't rated that high in ODI because of 2 major factors

1. Moderate record in World Cup (Averages 42 )
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

2. Mediocre record in final matches of ODI series ( any tournament ) (Averages 28 )
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[ankitj]

What is cons. final btw?

Lara just didn't maintain his excellence long enough. From start of 1998 to end of his career in 2007 he just averaged 36. Before that he was averaging 46-47 which in those days was very rare. At that stage, only Bevan had a higher average among his contemporaries I will guess.

 

[sunilz]

What is cons. final btw?

Lara just didn't maintain his excellence long enough. From start of 1998 to end of his career in 2007 he just averaged 36. Before that he was averaging 46-47 which in those days was very rare. At that stage, only Bevan had a higher average among his contemporaries I will guess.

Best of 3 finals ( Australian tri-series )

 

[vcs]

What is cons. final btw?

Lara just didn't maintain his excellence long enough. From start of 1998 to end of his career in 2007 he just averaged 36. Before that he was averaging 46-47 which in those days was very rare. At that stage, only Bevan had a higher average among his contemporaries I will guess.

Yeah he was brilliant for the first half, after that he seemed to save his best for the longer format. Did play some awesome knocks against great attacks and also destroyed SA a couple of times in WCs.

I distinctly remember this series, he was head and shoulders above all the other batsmen in very tough batting conditions facing great attacks.

Total International Series, 1992/93 Cricket Team Records & Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[sunilz]

1. Garry Sobers
2. Donald Bradman
3. Viv Richards
4. Glenn Mcgrath
5. Muttiah Muralitharan
6. Sachin Tendulkar
7. Imran Khan
8. Richard Hadlee
9. Shane Warne
10.Adam Gilchrist
11.Wasim Akram
12.Malcolm Marshall
13.Jacques Kallis
14.Curtly Ambrose
15.Brian Lara
16.AB Devilliers
17.Virat Kohli
18.Shaun Pollock
19.Joel Garner
20.Ricky Ponting
21.Jack Hobbs
22.Sunil Gavaskar
23. .Len Hutton
24. Steve Smith
25.Herbert sutcliffe

 

[ankitj]

Yeah he was brilliant for the first half, after that he seemed to save his best for the longer format. Did play some awesome knocks against great attacks and also destroyed SA a couple of times in WCs.

I distinctly remember this series, he was head and shoulders above all the other batsmen in very tough batting conditions facing great attacks.

Total International Series, 1992/93 Cricket Team Records & Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Strike Rates are very interesting. Old times!