The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

I went through the list and a lot of those blokes have only had 1 series in Australia against a crap attack or are themselves Australia. Then there's the odd bloke with the high average like Voges and Barrington.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

wtf?

It was just a comment, if you disagree with it that's fine just tell me why. Just don't do this **** again

I don't disagree with it. But I gave you the stats for all 1329 batsmen already! Please read my posts if you're going to reply. I don't find the url's and share them just for my own amusement. I'm not some statsguru savant.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I went through the list and a lot of those blokes have only had 1 series in Australia against a crap attack or are themselves Australia. Then there's the odd bloke with the high average like Voges and Barrington.

Of course. If you went by 1 tests averages, is the Don the best?

Guess you got a filter a bit more :P

NZ don't claim Redmond as a great nor SL with Kruppu.

 

[trundler]

I honestly cant deal with Statsguru. I just end up going to ACS (Association of Cricket Statisticians) and HOWSTAT and see what I can find there

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I honestly cant deal with Statsguru. I just end up going to ACS (Association of Cricket Statisticians) and HOWSTAT and see what I can find there

Howstat would only give me by the ground, not Australia as a whole. I honestly tried

Maybe someone like ***** can bring it up by country comparison. It was beyond my noob means.

Headingly (29) and Port Elizabeth (25'ish mid to high 20s anyway) seemed way more difficult than all major Aussie grounds (which were all above 30) to make runs iirc.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't disagree with it. But I gave you the stats for all 1329 batsmen already! Please read my posts if you're going to reply. I don't find the url's and share them just for my own amusement. I'm not some statsguru savant.

Then what are you reacting to? Yes, I read your post, and yes I saw the stats. Why would you assume I didn't? I just cbf looking through them.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Here's a basic rundown anyway:

Averaged over 55 in Aus from 1989-2013 (Minimum 2 Tests):
- J Trott: 66.28
- D Brownlie: 65.33
- M Vaughan: 63.3
- J Oram: 62
- K Sangakkara 60.33

That's it, 5 batsmen. (Tendulkar averaged 53.20)

Averaged under 30 in Aus from 1989-2013 (Minimum 2 Tests):
- R Smith
- M Atherton
- D Flynn
- C McMillan
- S Fleming
- K Williamson
- A Mathews
- B McMillan
- D Ranatunga
- M Butcher
- T Gripper
- A Redmond
- K More
- C Wishart
- M Carberry
- M Prabhakar (was an allrounder)
- J Crawley
- M Azharuddin
- A Flintoff (AR)
- R Kaluwitharana (WK)
- C Hooper
- W Hinds
- J Rudolph
- M Trescothick
- S Campbell
- D Ramdin (WK)
- M Vandort
- J Adams
- B McCullum
- Faisal Iqbal
- F Karunaratne
- A Chopra
- D Elgar
- G Gambhir
- M Richardson

and many more . . . ^these are only the ones who average between 30 and 22, there are plenty that average <22



So basically it's a complete myth that batting in Australia was easy during Tendulkar's career. It wasn't, it was actually one of the hardest places for travelling batsmen.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Here's a basic rundown anyway:

Averaged over 55 in Aus from 1989-2013 (Minimum 2 Tests):
- J Trott: 66.28
- D Brownlie: 65.33
- M Vaughan: 63.3
- J Oram: 62
- K Sangakkara 60.33

No - this is a list of people over 60 and you've micro managed to 89 and 1993. Who cares? Who cares about 1989? Who cares about 2008 to 2013?

Fill out the list please.

That's it, 5 batsmen. (Tendulkar averaged 53.20)

Averaged under 30 in Aus from 1989-2013 (Minimum 2 Tests):
- R Smith
- M Atherton
- D Flynn
- C McMillan
- S Fleming
- K Williamson
- A Mathews
- B McMillan
- D Ranatunga
- M Butcher
- T Gripper
- A Redmond
- K More
- C Wishart
- M Carberry
- M Prabhakar (was an allrounder)
- J Crawley
- M Azharuddin
- A Flintoff (AR)
- R Kaluwitharana (WK)
- C Hooper
- W Hinds
- J Rudolph
- M Trescothick
- S Campbell
- D Ramdin (WK)
- M Vandort
- J Adams
- B McCullum
- Faisal Iqbal
- F Karunaratne
- A Chopra
- D Elgar
- G Gambhir
- M Richardson

and many more . . . ^these are only the ones who average between 30 and 22, there are plenty that average <22

Name 2 from this sub 30 list who are ATG contender?

So basically it's a complete myth that batting in Australia was easy during Tendulkar's career. It wasn't, it was actually one of the hardest places for travelling batsmen.

Tendulkar is #73 on average all time.

Try your comparison again.

Properly and fairly this time.

You can use McGrath and Warne span. But I used Australia all time span with reference to covered pitches.

Move the goal posts all you like.

You won't convince me.

Aussie pitches are ROADS and have been for a very very very long time. I am many more cricket fans care less about runs in Australia than India, England or Safrica. Just look at KW and Kohli as examples.

No offence, but I respect spinners who succeed in Aus, not batsmen. Because spinner face a real litmus test in Australia, not batsmen. Even Ross Taylor averages more in Australia than he does at home in NZ. Johnson, Starc, Hazelwood and all.

Either tackle the point fairly, all time, or from covered pitches, or not at all. 1989 to 2013 makes no sense to me at all.

 

[TheJediBrah]

No - this is a list of people over 60, not 55.

Fill out the list please.

No, it is a full list of those averaging over 55. Read more carefully.

Utter LIES. Or ahuge mistake on your part. Where is Crowe. Where is Williamson. Don't BS me.

Williamson averaged 18. Crowe actually did average 55 right on the dot! (technically not "over 55" ) but if you do want to include him, that's 6 batsmen averaged over 55 in Australia during Tendulkar's career. Compared to, what 50+ averaging under 30? Hardly proves your point

Name 2 from this sub 30 list who are ATG contender?

irrelevant

Tendulkar is #73 on average.

Try your comparison again.

Properly and fairly this time.

Again, irrelevant. What are you actually trying to argue?

You are completely and utterly wrong in saying that batting in Australia was easy during Tendulkar's career, and you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

No, it is a full list of those averaging over 55. Read more carefully.




Williamson averaged 18. Crowe actually did average 55 right on the dot! (technically not "over 55" ) but if you do want to include him, that's 6 batsmen averaged over 55 in Australia during Tendulkar's career. Compared to, what 50+ averaging under 30? Hardly proves your point



irrelevant





Again, irrelevant. What are you actually trying to argue?

You are completely and utterly wrong in saying that batting in Australia was easy during Tendulkar's career, and you don't have a leg to stand on.

JediBrah - I am placing you on ignore for the good of the forum atmosphere.

I gave you that Tendulkar was #73 in Australia.

You want to deny it.

I don't know why. I don't care why.

But nothing you say will likely change the fact that I don't care for runs in Australia since covered pitches as against India, Safrica or England.

Too many roads. Too many runs.

Everything I said in my first post is accurate. Everything in it still stands.

I rate spinners bar Murali being no balled in Australia, not batsmen.

Good night.

 

[Coronis]

JediBrah - I am placing you on ignore for the good of the forum atmosphere.

I gave you that Tendulkar was #73 in Australia.

You want to deny it.

I don't know why. I don't care why.

But nothing you say will likely change the fact that I don't care for runs in Australia since covered pitches as against India, Safrica or England.

Too many roads. Too many runs.

Everything I said in my first post is accurate. Everything in it still stands.

I rate spinners bar Murali being no balled in Australia, not batsmen.

Good night.

Erm, he's talking about the difficulty during Tendulkar's career, why would someone averaging 55 in the 70's or any other time be relevant to that?

 

[TheJediBrah]

JediBrah - I am placing you on ignore for the good of the forum atmosphere.

I gave you that Tendulkar was #73 in Australia.

You want to deny it.

I don't know why. I don't care why.

But nothing you say will likely change the fact that I don't care for runs in Australia since covered pitches as against India, Safrica or England.

Too many roads. Too many runs.

Everything I said in my first post is accurate. Everything in it still stands.

I rate spinners bar Murali being no balled in Australia, not batsmen.

Good night.

jfc you really need to get a grip. You made an incorrect statement, got called out on it, then go off your face like this as a result? This is exactly the kind of thing we were talking about in the other thread.

You going to put everyone who disgarees with you on ignore? Good luck with that

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Who doesn't average big in Australia, though?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

You may call me a troll, call me contrarian, or whatever, but I really do not understand the obsession with making runs IN Australia.

Tendulkar is about the 73rd (I may have gotten the precise number wrong - I am short sighted) highest average in Australia. Hardly the stuff that defines him as the batsman that he is. Sure I value it more than runs in Zimbabwe, or 1980's Sri Lanka, but in more modern times, I think we have to accept that Aussie pitches have put out some mammoth scores regularly, for visitors and hosts both.

You know visiting spinners averaged 48 in Australia between 2000 and 2010.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/486576.html

Warne in that time 29.51
Macgill in that time 30.34

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...al1=span;team=2;template=results;type=bowling

If a batsman handles fast bounce, what else is on offer in Australia in modern times, since say covered pitches?

Plus I am pretty sure Tendulkar had a famous "breakthrough" series in Australia against a debutante Warne. Taking nothing away from either. But Ravi Shastri made a double century against Warne iirc.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-3rd-test-india-tour-of-australia-1991-92/

How would you feel if some Bangladeshi fans said, nah - Steve Smith hasn't made runs IN Bangladesh so I won't rate him?

jfc you really need to get a grip. You made an incorrect statement, got called out on it, then go off your face like this as a result? This is exactly the kind of thing we were talking about in the other thread.

You going to put everyone who disgarees with you on ignore? Good luck with that

Good luck finding an incorrect statement.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Erm, he's talking about the difficulty during Tendulkar's career, why would someone averaging 55 in the 70's or any other time be relevant to that?

I find your use of "Erm" inflammatory, but perhaps I am too sensitive, so I pose you a simple question; is there anyone else who faced the identical difficulty during Tendulkar's career as Tendulkar himself?

The answer is of course no. But I won't say "Erm". Because I respect you as a poster. And I am keen to hear your thoughts and discuss cricket with you on further issues.

Where you draw the line in the sand is arbitrary. I went with all-time in Australia. Red Hill went with McGrath/Warne on second thought when I asked him. You choose Tendulkar's career span. Who is talking to who?

But your answer to the aforementioned will not change that I associate Australia with many many road pitches. I have seen dustbowls in the subcontinent, swing and seam in England and Safrica. What is in Australia in modern times since covered pitches? Some WACA cracks?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ugh don't do this again. Don't Miyagi another thread. We're talking about Tendulkar, that's why 1989-2013. Any other time period is irrelevant.

Here's the batting stats for each team touring Australia in that time:

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

South Africa are the only team to average over 30.

here's NZ:
Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Aus, Pak, Eng, SA, Ind, WI all average over 30 in NZ in that time. (everyone except SL, Zim and Ban)

Batting in NZ was clearly much, much easier than batting in Australia during that time. (and I'm guessing most other countries would be similar) You should rate Tendulkar's runs higher than you do. That's it.

And your "Australian roads" complaint is more or less a myth. As I said it's been largely since Tendulkar retired that the roads really started coming on regularly.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Ugh don't do this again. Don't Miyagi another thread.

Dont't JediBrah another thread. Please.

We're talking about Tendulkar, that's why 1989-2013.

You may be. I am talking Australia all time. I am not interested in a goal post move.

Any other time period is irrelevant.

According to you. Not me. Nor Red Hill who fancies McGrath and Warne. You're third man in.

here's NZ:
Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Who cares about NZ?

Did I once tackle Red Hill with a single query about NZ? NZ batsmen typically suck! And the bowlers only slightly better!

If you want to bash NZ - be my guest, but batting in Aus aint the best the thread to do it with.

As for Aussie roads - Tendulkar is #73 in Australia.

 

[trundler]

There's 2 many fundamental problems here:

1) Only visiting batsmen should be considered and they should have more than 1, or 2 tests. Sanga had what, a 192 in one innings in a series against peak AUS and outside of that did terribly but that one innings inflates his average.
2) What Sobers averaged against a docile Australian attack is irrelevant. IMO, the cutoff should be 2007 because up till then Australia was the best in the world. The quality of opposition is what makes Sachin's runs incredible.

 

[Starfighter]

jfc you really need to get a grip. You made an incorrect statement, got called out on it, then go off your face like this as a result? This is exactly the kind of thing we were talking about in the other thread.

You going to put everyone who disgarees with you on ignore? Good luck with that

Blocky 2.0

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Blocky 2.0

Starfighter 4th man in 3.0

Find a mistake in the below if you can.

Who doesn't average big in Australia, though?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

You may call me a troll, call me contrarian, or whatever, but I really do not understand the obsession with making runs IN Australia.

Tendulkar is about the 73rd (I may have gotten the precise number wrong - I am short sighted) highest average in Australia. Hardly the stuff that defines him as the batsman that he is. Sure I value it more than runs in Zimbabwe, or 1980's Sri Lanka, but in more modern times, I think we have to accept that Aussie pitches have put out some mammoth scores regularly, for visitors and hosts both.

You know visiting spinners averaged 48 in Australia between 2000 and 2010.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/486576.html

Warne in that time 29.51
Macgill in that time 30.34

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...al1=span;team=2;template=results;type=bowling

If a batsman handles fast bounce, what else is on offer in Australia in modern times, since say covered pitches?

Plus I am pretty sure Tendulkar had a famous "breakthrough" series in Australia against a debutante Warne. Taking nothing away from either. But Ravi Shastri made a double century against Warne iirc.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-3rd-test-india-tour-of-australia-1991-92/

How would you feel if some Bangladeshi fans said, nah - Steve Smith hasn't made runs IN Bangladesh so I won't rate him?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I would prefer to pick Lara based on cricket as a spectator sport, but you can't argue with the fact that Sachin is the most adaptable batsman in the history of the game.

His average against any opponent OR in any conditions never dipped below 40.

He averaged 55 against McGrath/Warne all thru their prime, and managed 53 against them IN Australia.

Who doesn't average big in Australia, though?

M8 you clearly responded directly to the topic about Tendulkar, and how you rated his performance in Australia. You are the one shifting goal posts. You can talk about "Australia all time" if you want but it's not relevant. Everyone else is talking about rating Tendulkar and how his performance in Australia relates, and that's directly what you are responding to.

Who cares about NZ?

Did I once tackle Red Hill with a single query about NZ? NZ batsmen typically suck.

NZ batsmen are irrelevant, it's the stats of touring team batting averages.

I just picked NZ because it was closest to Australia geographically, I could do it with every other country if you like but I can almost guarantee you that touring teams will have higher averages in most if not all when compared to Australia during that time period.