Hate their personality, love their game.

[social]

Big fan of boxing but first to admit that its record on doping controls and general protection of fighters has been less than stellar

However, I cannot stand MMA

That is legalized thuggery with many of the participants being "allegedly" () juiced to the eyeballs

What's more, IMO there is something very wrong with a "sport" where it's ok to club a guy to the mat before straddling him and beating the living **** out of him just to make sure that he is really out

American football also leaves me cold with the way in which players can use helmets as a weapon

 

[Burgey]

Yeah not a fan of MMA as spectator sport at all tbh.

 

[cnerd123]

However, I cannot stand MMA

That is legalized thuggery with many of the participants being "allegedly" () juiced to the eyeballs

I hate language like this being used

The competitors at the highest level of MMA are black belts in various martial arts, sometimes multiple martial arts, or olympic athletes. They've spent their whole life training and mastering various skill sets that they then put to the test against other elite martial artists.

Not only that, having played several sports myself, I can genuinely say the nicest people I've met are in MMA gyms. There is no ego, no pride, no unnecessary aggression or conflict. Fighters are the most humble people I've met. And the bigger and scarier they are, they nicer they become. I've met way more 'thugs' who play cricket, soccer, basketball, etc. And gym bros are the worst. Nothing shatters these illusions of toughness and forces you to humble up like being in a gym with men and women who could all kick your ass. And the elite level guys - they have absolutely no need to prove their toughness to anyone. They're so diplomatic and peaceful and so against conflict. They're sweethearts. To associate MMA with the word 'thuggery'...urgh. It's just so, so wrong.

I can also say quite safely that it's the only sport I've seen that has comparable depth and nuance in terms of strategy and skills to cricket. It's really quite beautiful once you understand what is going on in there and the various skills and techniques available to the athletes. Mike Tyson said it best - tough people don't succeed in boxing. Smart people do. Tough people get hurt. The same applies to MMA, and in a much broader sense since there is so much going on. No just using two hands to hit someone in two parts of the body. Its a very, very complex sport.

I get how it's unappealing to the eye, especially for someone who never attempted to train and participate in it, but is it really so much to ask to simply respect it? To just take the word of someone who is in this world and is a big fan that there is so much more to it than the eye can see? That it's not 'thuggery'? You don't have to like it to atleast respect and understand it, right?

No comment on the doping issue though. I'm actually not against steroid use, just wish there were separate leagues for users and non-users to compete in.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There's no need to get that sensitive tbh. It's literally a sport where the objective is to beat the crap out of your opponent. As much of a "sweetheart" as you may may be, you need to have a bit of thug in you to be good at beating up people.

 

[cnerd123]

There's no need to get that sensitive tbh. It's literally a sport where the objective is to beat the crap out of your opponent. As much of a "sweetheart" as you may may be, you need to have a bit of thug in you to be good at beating up people.

9/10 martial artists start learning it for self defence

You get the odd Mike Perry who would have started learning because he enjoys beating people up, but the vast majority of martial artists did not get into martial arts because they wanted a career beating people up. They just happen to fall in love with the science and the art and the skill behind it and become so good at it that they end up competing at the highest levels and figure they'd go pro with it.

You'd be surprised at the number of high-level MMA fighters who still have full time jobs. This assumption that they were little kids who wanted to be good at beating people up and thus became MMA fighters is way off the mark. And yes, i mean little kids. You don't become an high-level MMA fighter when you start training in your 20s (unless you're a Heavyweight. Heavyweight MMA is a bit crazy)

 

[Ausage]

However it is occasionally a thrilling spectacle. Its governance makes the ICB look efficient and well-oiled, but, boiled down to its basics, it is arguably the most honest of sports.

I know you said arguably, but really?

I've always been massively sceptical of the integrity of sports that use judges to keep score.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I know you said arguably, but really?

I've always been massively sceptical of the integrity of sports that use judges to keep score.

Yeah, as I said its officialdom is, frankly, embarrassing. I'm sure we've all seen decisions that were questionable. The most egregious act of robbery I saw was Roy Jones Jr somehow being deemed to have lost to a South Korean boxer in the 1988 Soeul Olympics.

I really meant the honesty, for want of a better word, of its competitors. Two men (or women) pitting themselves against one another putting their reputations, records and health on the line. There's a nobility in that; nowhere for them to hide.

It's sport pared down to its essence.

 

[Burgey]

I hate language like this being used

The competitors at the highest level of MMA are black belts in various martial arts, sometimes multiple martial arts, or olympic athletes. They've spent their whole life training and mastering various skill sets that they then put to the test against other elite martial artists.

Not only that, having played several sports myself, I can genuinely say the nicest people I've met are in MMA gyms. There is no ego, no pride, no unnecessary aggression or conflict. Fighters are the most humble people I've met. And the bigger and scarier they are, they nicer they become. I've met way more 'thugs' who play cricket, soccer, basketball, etc. And gym bros are the worst. Nothing shatters these illusions of toughness and forces you to humble up like being in a gym with men and women who could all kick your ass. And the elite level guys - they have absolutely no need to prove their toughness to anyone. They're so diplomatic and peaceful and so against conflict. They're sweethearts. To associate MMA with the word 'thuggery'...urgh. It's just so, so wrong.

I can also say quite safely that it's the only sport I've seen that has comparable depth and nuance in terms of strategy and skills to cricket. It's really quite beautiful once you understand what is going on in there and the various skills and techniques available to the athletes. Mike Tyson said it best - tough people don't succeed in boxing. Smart people do. Tough people get hurt. The same applies to MMA, and in a much broader sense since there is so much going on. No just using two hands to hit someone in two parts of the body. Its a very, very complex sport.

I get how it's unappealing to the eye, especially for someone who never attempted to train and participate in it, but is it really so much to ask to simply respect it? To just take the word of someone who is in this world and is a big fan that there is so much more to it than the eye can see? That it's not 'thuggery'? You don't have to like it to atleast respect and understand it, right?

No comment on the doping issue though. I'm actually not against steroid use, just wish there were separate leagues for users and non-users to compete in.

I think a lot of what you say is right, probably because in this instance you aren't talking about cricket.

That aside, my issue with televised MMA such as UFC is pretty much the same as Social's. It's not so much the lack of technique or skill involved, it's the the piling on when your opponent is vulnerable. Now, I agree with you that there is nothing technically wrong with that from a self-defence POV, and as anyone who has done any form of martial art which involves grappling (MMA or otherwise) knows, everyone likes a little ground 'n pound. But when you're training those techniques in a dojo you invariably tap out early or conduct the drills in a way which minimises injury to you and your opponent. And of course, if you're on the street and in a dust up, you throw out the rule book in the interests of self-preservation.

But I do find something disturbing about UFC and how long the officials wait to stop bouts. I can understand why others who admire the skill and intensity of those techniques don't let it bother them but it bothers me.

 

[cnerd123]

Fighters can tap out to strikes. It happens.

The referee's job is also to stop the fight when one fighter is no longer intelligently defending themselves.

When you get to the UFC, you have battled hardened pros who have trained their whole lives for that fight. They don't want it stopped when they take a few punches to the face. They would actively get mad if the felt they still had a chance of surviving the round but the ref stepped in and stopped it.

These men and women we see competing in MMA on TV are way tougher than any of us could imagine. If they have had enough, they would tap out, or they'd ball up and show no fight so the ref would stop it. But when you see a guy on the bottom scrambling and moving and trying to escape but is just getting wailed on instead, you have to understand, he actually prefers it this way. He genuinely believes he can get out of there, survive, and still win the fight. He doesn't want the fight that he trained for months for, the event that his whole life has been building to, to be stopped because some people watching are squeamish. He'd much rather eat a dozen punches and hope to make it back to his feet.

To most MMA fans, seeing a fighter take a beating and keep moving is inspirational. Because we know they could actually stop and quit anytime they wanted to.

 

[honestbharani]

There's no need to get that sensitive tbh. It's literally a sport where the objective is to beat the crap out of your opponent. As much of a "sweetheart" as you may may be, you need to have a bit of thug in you to be good at beating up people.

Now you are being a dick just for the sake of it here to *****.

 

[hendrix]

it's the the piling on when your opponent is vulnerable. .

That's the best time to pile on (5)

The reality is that a boxer's punch hits much, much harder than MMA fighters even accounting for the difference in gloves, and boxers tend to get knocked out far less easily as well, and almost certainly suffer worse consequences.

I don't have any data to back this up but amongst boxing circles it's thought that he solid journeyman with the granite chin is the one who suffers the worst consequences. The Amir Khan's of this world tend to take a couple of big, acute knockouts and not be too worse off.

 

[hendrix]

These men and women we see competing in MMA on TV are way tougher than any of us could imagine.

You've been buying too much of Dana's bullshit. The difference between a to UFC fighter and a club fighter is nowhere near as great as the difference between the top and the average guy in most sports.

That's not hate, it's just reality. UFC is a young sport with few professional opportunities, very limited coaching at the domestic level (in comparison with other sports) and virtually no established youth amateur circuit. It's nowhere near as large as the difference between a test bowler and a first grade bowler, for example.

 

[cnerd123]

I didn't say UFC fighters are significantly way more skilful than regional fighters?

I said men and women we watch competing in MMA are way tougher than we imagine. Which is a true statement. You have to be tough af to even get in the cage to begin with, let alone making fighting your career.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, as I said its officialdom is, frankly, embarrassing. I'm sure we've all seen decisions that were questionable. The most egregious act of robbery I saw was Roy Jones Jr somehow being deemed to have lost to a South Korean boxer in the 1988 Soeul Olympics.

I really meant the honesty, for want of a better word, of its competitors. Two men (or women) pitting themselves against one another putting their reputations, records and health on the line. There's a nobility in that; nowhere for them to hide.

It's sport pared down to its essence.

I can understand that. I have heard tennis being compared to boxing in that sense, except for y'know, the violence.

Some insightful posts by ***** in this thread. Can't ever imagine myself ever developing an interest in MMA or boxing, but fair enough.

 

[cnerd123]

I really meant the honesty, for want of a better word, of its competitors. Two men (or women) pitting themselves against one another putting their reputations, records and health on the line. There's a nobility in that; nowhere for them to hide.

It's sport pared down to its essence.

MMA is a far better representation of this than Boxing IMO. It's the same thing with fewer rules. Less restrictions. More room for creativity and expressing yourself through various styles and strategies

 

[cnerd123]

I can understand that. I have heard tennis being compared to boxing in that sense, except for y'know, the violence.

Some insightful posts by ***** in this thread. Can't ever imagine myself ever developing an interest in MMA or boxing, but fair enough.

I wasn't a fan either, till I actually took a couple of Muay Thai classes.

Once I started learning how sophisticated the techniques are, started talking to the coaches and other people training about what goes on in a fight, the amount of thought and planning that goes into it, and once you just interact with fighters and see what great people they are...your perceptions change.

The biggest thing with martial arts is you leave your ego at the door. And the biggest thing is that it is so humbling. There is no room for bullshit. No room to blame the pitch or the toss or your teaammates or talk about who gamed the rules to their advantage or anything like that.

MMA is just a fight. Plain and simple. You have some techniques disallowed because they are too effective or actually lethal, and a few rules to make sure no one takes advantage of the cage or uses their opponent's gear or something against them. So it's not completely, 100% a real fight. But it's the closest you will get.

And when you fight, there is no room for excuses. It's do or die. Win or lose. And if you lose, you only have yourself to blame. You were not skillful enough, or not strong enough, or not fit enough, or couldn't stop your opponent's techniques, or weren't smart enough to find the holes in their defence when they found the holes in yours. Ultimately, if you want to get better, you have to set your pride and ego aside, own up to your flaws, and come back to the gym. Day in and day out. Be willing to keep training and learning and getting better. Get your ass kicked in the gym repeatedly by people who have techniques that you cant stop until you can stop them.

And every fight, when it's just you and your opponent in the ring/cage/mats, you got to show them respect. No matter what. Because one moment could end it for you. There is no room for complacency.




And now imagine that this is your whole life, and people who don't get it just sit there and call you thugs and barbaric.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Now you are being a dick just for the sake of it here to *****.

eh what?

 

[hendrix]

And when you fight, there is no room for excuses. It's do or die. Win or lose. And if you lose, you only have yourself to blame.
And now imagine that this is your whole life, and people who don't get it just sit there and call you thugs and barbaric.

EVERY wage earner's life situation is dependent on whether they get that next promotion, how quickly they learn that new skill, how good at office politics they are etc etc. We ALL only have ourselves to blame. You're describing the struggle of life that is not at all unique to MMA. Intelligence, social intelligence, artfulness etc are all arguably far more relevent and not represented at all in MMA. We can choose not to excuse ourself for any failing.

You don't get to affront criticism because of passion.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And now imagine that this is your whole life, and people who don't get it just sit there and call you thugs and barbaric.

While obviously calling them thugs would be over the top, as I said before, at it's core it's about beating other people up and you need a bit of a nasty streak to do it well, imo. I watch and enjoy MMA and can appreciate the skill they bring. That doesn't mean I find the profession particularly noble.

I think maybe that's why I enjoy pro-wrestling a bit more as I've grown up. Knowing that the two guys aren't trying to hurt each other (rather they're constantly trying to keep each other safe) is a bit comforting to me at some level.

 

[cnerd123]

EVERY wage earner's life situation is dependent on whether they get that next promotion, how quickly they learn that new skill, how good at office politics they are etc etc. We ALL only have ourselves to blame. You're describing the struggle of life that is not at all unique to MMA. Intelligence, social intelligence, artfulness etc are all arguably far more relevent and not represented at all in MMA. We can choose not to excuse ourself for any failing.

You don't get to affront criticism because of passion.

why are you missing the point so much

It's disrespectful to call anyone doing their best in life a 'thug' or 'barbarian'. That's the point of those words. Using those words to describe a person is to imply they're not capable of greater thought, that they're somehow primitive and driven by violence and greed and self-satisfaction, that they aren't complex well rounded human beings like the person who uses that word.

Saying that MMA is like all walks of life is basically exactly my whole point. That's what I'm trying to show here. I don't want you guys to suddenly like it, I just want you to respect it. These pro fighters are hardworking, skillful, intelligent human beings. They aren't pro fighters just because they're violent blood thirsty beings. They, like everyone else, are human beings who seek to constantly grow and test themselves.

Like it or don't like it, I don't mind, just don't call people who do something that you do not understand 'thugs' or 'barbarians'. Treat them with the respect they've deserved, and maybe attempt to understand the complexities of the sport before dismissing it.