*** Official*** South Africa in England 2017

[Black_Warrior]

Don't agree Mike & Shaney.

Test cricket needs resolve as well. You taught early on the basics of defence. You need to make bowlers get you out. Like Kesh got YJB in the first innings

But he has a point though. When Root was batting at 100 SR on Day 2 everyone was frothing at the mouth at how he was batting on a different pitch to others. When he gets out doing that, he gets called out.

 

[Black_Warrior]

It's what we do when faced with a tough 4th innings scenario. There really isn't an ounce of fight in this side; fine when the going's good, but if not they just fold like this.
There's a lousy team culture which hasn't been checked for some years now.

People said the same thing about South Africa when they collapsed in the 4th innings. This happens to every team in the 4th innings. Nothing particular about one team's culture.

 

[Black_Warrior]

When was the last time England had a convincing Test match without major performances from Root/Broad/Anderson? I admit I didn't follow closely last summer.

Would also add Ali and Bairstow to that

 

[social]

Is it fair to say he might be the closest thing this generation has to a Hick/Ramprakash type player?

He probably gets next match though, as of the 4 that are candidates for dropping, he's been the least dreadful. In order to go for me would be: Wood, Dawson, Jennings, Ballance

IIRC, Hick and especially Ramprakash were far better players from a technical perspective and their problems were mainly between the ears

Ballance simply has a fundamental flaw in his batting and I am bemused at how many runs that he has scored in fc cricket this season as he really should be a sitting duck for any competent seamer in early summer conditions

 

[Black_Warrior]

Dumb comments from Vaughan. Half the team doesn't even play LOIs

Root shocked by Vaughan condemnation of England's 'lack of respect' for Test cricket | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[CarlsbergXpress]

Add Cook and that's a decent spine to the team. Wouldn't give up on Jennings just yet, but England need some test match standard batsmen and I'm not seeing many coming through without taking a punt.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Jennings has a 100 in the bank and should get this series at least. This is Ballance's second comeback so not sure if he should get the full series.

 

[CarlsbergXpress]

When was the last time England had a convincing Test match without major performances from Root/Broad/Anderson? I admit I didn't follow closely last summer.
Would also add Ali and Bairstow to that

Should have quoted this btw

 

[Scaly piscine]

Ballance needs to go. Permanently this time. I expect Dawson and Wood to make way. Woakes will presumably come straight back in for the latter. You'd think Rashid will come in as you'd think The Oval will be quite dry/flat, but who knows with this lot.

You'd think Stoneman would come in for Ballance and Jennings would drop to 3. But it's hard to predict with this lot. Would think Bayliss would be under pressure soon if England continue to lose most of their Test matches.

Dropping Jennings would be absolutely stupid at this stage, but not beyond some people. Has been on the end of some great deliveries, and was sawn off by Ballance in the first match.

 

[FBU]

Stoneman is by far the most likely to get called up I suppose, seems like exactly the sort of pick we have been making the last few years.

Could do a youth thing I suppose, especially if a middle order spot is available because it brings someone like Lawrence into the discussion. Thing is in any other season Hameed would have played the first Test of the summer, a bit of poor form early season would have been discounted, it was only because we had such a long stretch before the first Test that it became a real problem. What is is he even doing at the moment with the Twenty20 being on?

Had a game in the 2nd XI against Warks 2nd XI made 71 (136). Saw off Chris Wright and got out to 19 year old Lamb. Hit in the air to 3rd man. Has another game tomorrow v MCC Young Cricketers

 

[fishyguy]

Congratulations to SA for winning the match with 10 players. Bavuma being the quota player.

 

[quincywagstaff]

With benefit of hindsight, I wonder whether England should’ve readjusted their batting order for a situation like this. Move Root up to 3 so even if you lose an early wicket you have somebody who can counterattack and perhaps put the South African bowlers on the back foot. And then perhaps move Ballance down to 6 so when wickets do fall and any chance of chasing down the target was lost, at least have someone there who can potentially stonewall and make it hard work for the opposition.

As it was, the way the batting lineup was structured played right into South Africa’s hands. Because the opening three were so defensive minded it let the South African bowlers set the tone as they were able to bowl on their terms.

But it probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway as South Africa were bowling too well and the English defensive bats defended badly and the attacking bats attacked badly.

 

[quincywagstaff]

On a broader level, I reckon England have been underachieving over the past 12 months in Test cricket. While not flawless, I think this is a very strong English Test lineup (especially in English conditions) and they shouldn’t be losing as many Tests as they have been.

They have their best ever Test opening batsman since at least Gooch (and possibly even as far back as Boycott), their best opening pace attack since Botham/Willis, have a new captain who’s shaping as one of their best ever Test bats and multiple all-rounders who have proven to be matchwinners with both bat and ball (something Australia have been desperate for in decades)

And yet they potentially could go four consecutive Test series without a victory. Something is amiss and I reckon their team selection and usage of their talent is a big part of the problem. They shouldn’t be putting in performances like they did this match.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Not sure about that. They haven't had a decent test opener since Strauss left in 2012 summer. Their top order is in shambles other than Root and Cook. If anything, their strong lower order of Bairstow, Ali, Stokes have managed to hide a lot of the issues at the top of the order. Don't forget, even at Lords they were 80/4 at Lunch.

They probably have the weakest batting line up among the top 6 teams

 

[quincywagstaff]

Not sure about that. They haven't had a decent test opener since Strauss left in 2012 summer. Their top order is in shambles other than Root and Cook. If anything, their strong lower order of Bairstow, Ali, Stokes have managed to hide a lot of the issues at the top of the order. Don't forget, even at Lords they were 80/4 at Lunch.

They probably have the weakest batting line up among the top 6 teams

No way they have a weaker batting lineup than Australia. Massively reliant on Smith, with their next best in Warner who has become a flat track bully who hasn’t got an overseas ton since 2014. There’s some promising new talent but it was in state of flux last summer and that they were still turning to someone as erratic as Shaun Marsh for their last series shows there are massive holes there.

I’m not an expert on other sides batting lineups, but with Misbah & Younis gone Pakistan would have to be weaker and while NZ had a pretty good home summer with the bat, I don’t think you could say they’re any better.

Moving Root up to 3 I think would solve a lot of problems for their lineup, especially when they have multiple all-rounders who can fill out the 6/7 spots.

 

[DriveClub]

On a broader level, I reckon England have been underachieving over the past 12 months in Test cricket. While not flawless, I think this is a very strong English Test lineup (especially in English conditions) and they shouldn’t be losing as many Tests as they have been.

They have their best ever Test opening batsman since at least Gooch (and possibly even as far back as Boycott), their best opening pace attack since Botham/Willis, have a new captain who’s shaping as one of their best ever Test bats and multiple all-rounders who have proven to be matchwinners with both bat and ball (something Australia have been desperate for in decades)

And yet they potentially could go four consecutive Test series without a victory. Something is amiss and I reckon their team selection and usage of their talent is a big part of the problem. They shouldn’t be putting in performances like they did this match.

Their issue is the support players have been just abysmal, if the support players were atleast a bit middling they would have lost a lot less

 

[Black_Warrior]

No way they have a weaker batting lineup than Australia. Massively reliant on Smith, with their next best in Warner who has become a flat track bully who hasn’t got an overseas ton since 2014. There’s some promising new talent but it was in state of flux last summer and that they were still turning to someone as erratic as Shaun Marsh for their last series shows there are massive holes there.

I’m not an expert on other sides batting lineups, but with Misbah & Younis gone Pakistan would have to be weaker and while NZ had a pretty good home summer with the bat, I don’t think you could say they’re any better.

Moving Root up to 3 I think would solve a lot of problems for their lineup, especially when they have multiple all-rounders who can fill out the 6/7 spots.

But Australia's batting line up since the 3rd test against South Africa last year has been solid. Sure they struggled a little bit in India but tbh those were some of the most difficult batting conditions any team will face today..even India other than Pujara looked at sea

Warner
Renshaw
Khawaja
Smith
Handscombe
Maxwell

This is a pretty solid batting line up, they're actually unstoppable at home (other than against South Africa). England's top order fails to deliver even at home

 

[CricAddict]

Is Cook on the wane? I don't remember him having his customary huge stonewalling innings recently.

 

[wpdavid]

People said the same thing about South Africa when they collapsed in the 4th innings. This happens to every team in the 4th innings. Nothing particular about one team's culture.

Yeah, but this is a regular occurrence for England. It wasn't even just their 2nd innings here, although I know that's what I mentioned in my original post. And it isn't just the batting that doesn't show up if conditions don't suit.

 

[Adders]

Pretty damning article this by Dobell

England struggle with naive approach in Tests | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

Some sense in it but a fair bit of crap too, nearly pissed myself laughing at this though.......

Bayliss isn't much of a technical coach, either. The players refer to him as "a man of few words" who leaves the technical work to others and is more interested in creating a positive, settled environment in which the players are able to perform to their optimum.
That's important, of course. But if he doesn't have much say in selection and he doesn't have much say in coaching, it does rather beg the question: what does he do? If he's just creating a relaxed environment, he could be replaced by a couple of scented candles, a yucca plant and a CD of ambient whale noises.