**Official** England in the West Indies 2017

[91Jmay]

Cummins took his first wickets in a first class match for 6 years this week. Lets not go overboard with Wood's injury record.

 

[Watson33]

Why is that depressing? It's been the case for a long time now. England haven't had anyone bowl at 150ks for years. Their team is over-rated. Commentators going berserk because they've finally realised 200 isn't a good score over 50 overs. They failed to beat any of the other big 5 in the last series they played against them. Yeah, they're better than they were but I don't get why they are favourites. Their bowling is so 'samey' and their spinners are horrific. Their batting is okay. Roy is great, Hales struggles against half decent bowlers, Root is good, Morgan has been out of form for 2 years and the rest are very much hit and miss, in Buttler's case it very rarely comes off for him. No consistency for England really and that is why they will fail.

People are tipping them because they will be playing in their conditions with home support backing. Not anything new, and i'm not so sure what you mean by commentators going berserk. Most commentators acknowledge that the bowling is still quite weak, even though they're currently missing Willey who's opening spells will be crucial. England's batting however is more than 'okay', they not long ago set the world record and have been breaking ODI records for a few years now. This has to be one of the most bitter posts i've ever seen on this forum

 

[Energetic]

I'm just glad the series didn't consist of 5 matches. West Indies have gone down. They use to be a pretty strong limited overs side at home. England made the mistake of not testing out their bench strength for this tour. Stokes looks like one of the players to watch out for. England's top order looks one of the best in the world. I like their approach, and would not change it all since they bat so deep. They also have a strong middle order. It's debatable whether Butler should bat up the order or in the middle order. He's going to be one of their most important players come the Champions Trophy.

 

[Furball]

Buttler should bat 5. He's just in bad form.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Does anyone know Butler's position? Even in red ball cricket he looks like a specialist batsman, a three or four, who is sort of lumped in lower down the order, after the genuine allrounder (Stokes) and wicketkeeper - the fact Butler himself is a keeper complicates matters. I saw him make a ton for Lancashire once and he was playing as a six or seven (cannot remember if he was keeping wicket?).

 

[Bahseph]

Carlos Braithwaite really doesn't bring enough to this ODI team. I haven't seen Powell so i cant comment on him but I'd much rather have Pollard in the middle order than Carlos. He is a justifiable pick in T20s though.

 

[theegyptian]

Does anyone know Butler's position? Even in red ball cricket he looks like a specialist batsman, a three or four, who is sort of lumped in lower down the order, after the genuine allrounder (Stokes) and wicketkeeper - the fact Butler himself is a keeper complicates matters. I saw him make a ton for Lancashire once and he was playing as a six or seven (cannot remember if he was keeping wicket?).

Buttler seems to have become a really dodgy starter in the last 1 or 2 years in odi cricket. I don't really remember him having that problem before. He doesn't seem to be able to get to 20 or 30 playing fairly risk free cricket anymore. I don't know if it's because he's been playing lots of t20 cricket and need to take risks from the start, or whether batting 6 and 7 for England ODI team has meant he similarly needs to take risks earlier and he's got out of the habit of building a white ball innings. I'd certainly of had Buttler at 5 for the last year or so, although right now he can't really have any complaints at batting 6.

Test cricket he's at best a 7, which you can't really be as a batsman so I wouldn't have him in the team (unless he was keeper).

 

[Moonsorrow999]

Buttler seems to have become a really dodgy starter in the last 1 or 2 years in odi cricket. I don't really remember him having that problem before. He doesn't seem to be able to get to 20 or 30 playing fairly risk free cricket anymore. I don't know if it's because he's been playing lots of t20 cricket and need to take risks from the start, or whether batting 6 and 7 for England ODI team has meant he similarly needs to take risks earlier and he's got out of the habit of building a white ball innings. I'd certainly of had Buttler at 5 for the last year or so, although right now he can't really have any complaints at batting 6.

Test cricket he's at best a 7, which you can't really be as a batsman so I wouldn't have him in the team (unless he was keeper).

I would keep Buttler as far away from Test Cricket as possible. Last time he had his massive rut it was because of Test Cricket. At the moment it's affecting his pajama game. Ever since he went back into the test side which he actually did 'okay' in his rut increased although he wasn't doing massively well before that if I recall. Of note he was 'okay' in SA against an average attack. Burst back into form away in Pakistan, but then again they are whipping boys of ODI cricket. What was England's summer, Pakistan and Sri Lanka at home? Seems fairly easy and even Alex Hales managed to score runs against Sri Lanka in the test series, but Buttler couldn't score runs against a team who are maybe even worse than Pakistan. I really do feel like he is the Rooney of English cricket. Can do some truly good things against pants opposition however against real quality he can't. Maybe he did do it before, I can't remember but at the moment he can't do it against quality. I can imagine spin at one end in the Champion's Trophy putting on pressure and then the likes of Starc, Hazlewood, Steyn, Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah etc all running in bowling 90mph+, which by the way when was the last time an Englishman consistently ran in and bowled quick? Maybe Flintoff and he was limited to 90-91mph.

 

[Tom Flint]

Wood is comfortably a 90+ bowler and obviously mills too even though his restricted to t20's but other than that theres not a lot else, overton and topley might be the next quickest and stokes seems to crank it up more in test matches and can bowl spells of 90. Despite what all the pundits seem to believe, finn hasnt been a 90+ bowler for the last 3/4 years.

 

[91Jmay]

I would keep Buttler as far away from Test Cricket as possible. Last time he had his massive rut it was because of Test Cricket. At the moment it's affecting his pajama game. Ever since he went back into the test side which he actually did 'okay' in his rut increased although he wasn't doing massively well before that if I recall. Of note he was 'okay' in SA against an average attack. Burst back into form away in Pakistan, but then again they are whipping boys of ODI cricket. What was England's summer, Pakistan and Sri Lanka at home? Seems fairly easy and even Alex Hales managed to score runs against Sri Lanka in the test series, but Buttler couldn't score runs against a team who are maybe even worse than Pakistan. I really do feel like he is the Rooney of English cricket. Can do some truly good things against pants opposition however against real quality he can't. Maybe he did do it before, I can't remember but at the moment he can't do it against quality. I can imagine spin at one end in the Champion's Trophy putting on pressure and then the likes of Starc, Hazlewood, Steyn, Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah etc all running in bowling 90mph+, which by the way when was the last time an Englishman consistently ran in and bowled quick? Maybe Flintoff and he was limited to 90-91mph.

This is such a poor trolling effort. Buttler scored a pretty great 100 vs SA, averaging 38 with a strike rate in the 115s.

 

[Moonsorrow999]

This is such a poor trolling effort. Buttler scored a pretty great 100 vs SA, averaging 38 with a strike rate in the 115s.

No Steyn, no Philander, no Rabada, Morris was on debut and Morkel has never been terrific albeit he's consistent. At the time S.A missing those 3 was like if Australia suddenly lost Warne, Mcgrath and Lee all for one game way back when. Fair play to him for getting the 100, never take that away from anyone but Buttler is talked about in the same vein as AB, Kohli and Warner. So over-rated. Brilliant on his day, but recently he's only done it against troll bowling attacks, even then not that often.

 

[Moonsorrow999]

Wood is comfortably a 90+ bowler and obviously mills too even though his restricted to t20's but other than that theres not a lot else, overton and topley might be the next quickest and stokes seems to crank it up more in test matches and can bowl spells of 90. Despite what all the pundits seem to believe, finn hasnt been a 90+ bowler for the last 3/4 years.

Mark Wood will never be fit, he basically injures himself. He needs to change things which will effect his speed. Besides, he is absolutely nowhere near the level of Starc and Cummins, Steyn is not as quick as he was but still hits 90mph and Hazlewood the same, mostly high 80s but can crank it up or down when required or when conditions either. Finn bowls like he's running through quicksand, he is nowhere near the potential he showed. Stokes is a machine but sadly he can't do everything all the time, especially as an all-rounder. He's good but he's not Kallis.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Wood is quicker than Starc, Steyn and Hazlewood. He is genuine 'express pace' a la Brett Lee or your West Indians (of a former age), not your medium-fast variety. Finn was quick until the ECB buggered up his action.

 

[ImpatientLime]

guys, i don't think moonsorrow likes england very much.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Wood is comfortably a 90+ bowler and obviously mills too even though his restricted to t20's but other than that theres not a lot else, overton and topley might be the next quickest and stokes seems to crank it up more in test matches and can bowl spells of 90. Despite what all the pundits seem to believe, finn hasnt been a 90+ bowler for the last 3/4 years.

isn't topley a lates 70s/early 80s merchant?

 

[Moonsorrow999]

guys, i don't think moonsorrow likes england very much.

Not that, just like it when England aren't over-rated so the impending disappointment doesn't hurt so much! And Wood is nowhere near the things Lee did in speed and skill.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Not that, just like it when England aren't over-rated so the impending disappointment doesn't hurt so much! And Wood is nowhere near the things Lee did in speed and skill.

In terms of speed it is basically fact Wood bowls at express pace. Skill? His test career has obviously been a bit stop and start and has not really got going. Shows a lot of promise though.

 

[theegyptian]

Yes topleys around the 80mph mark. Wood isn't as quick as Starc. Starc is capable of quicker (than Wood) and has better endurance. Wood in the tests he has played has had one spell at around 89/90mph and then later spells at 84/85mph iirc. Similar in ODI cricket. 91,92 first spell, and 85mph average second spell.

My issue wasn't so much that England don't produce 90mph guys. I know that.

It was more that Woakes, Ball, Plunkett all seem to have lost pace this past year and that will be an issue going forward if it continues. Plunkett got back in the team on the back of bowling high 80s but was bowling 81 or 82 in Windies (albeit taking lots of wickets). Woakes again seems to have lost a load of pace. Ball was high 80s on test debut but again had lost plenty. Burn out, or technical failings? Finn has lost it generally.

The next group coming through aren't great in terms of pace. Need replacements for Broad and Anderson. Currans get talked up a lot but both are around the 81,82mph mark. That isn't going to crack it. Trj 78-80. COverton has the height and nips the ball around but is only about 80/81mph. Olly Stone was my pick (high 80s, superb fielder, smart bowler) but he's had a acl reconstruction so he might never recover. Helm I haven't seen on TV but watching the youtube clips of his bowling I reckon he was around the 85mph mark last year. Tall, accurate, good action. He's definitely got a good chance. Fisher(83-84mph) and Saq Mahmood(85+) are the two others with good actions and already good pace I've got big hopes for but are still young. Jamie Overton's used to have pace but his action was awful last year and had lost pace.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Nahh, Wood reached 92.7mph against Pakistan. He says he can go faster. I think 94mph max seems about right.

 

[theegyptian]

I'm talking average speeds. Sure Wood has had quick deliveries but it's consistent pace over spells and days that is really valuable. Starc has hit 99mph if you want top pace. Starc is consistently quicker than anyone in internaitonal cricket imo. Broad 94 or 95 mph top pace iirc.