Placing our bets on "Test Cricket's Young Fab Four"

[Furball]

Root's problem is he's doing a Shane Watson.

Gets to 50 an absurd amount of times but isn't converting enough of them into meaningful hundreds which is hurting England. He passed 50 in every Test in India but obly went to 3 figures once, and even that was just 120. In South Africa he got a ton and 2 50s in 4 Tests but only top scored with 110 (in an admittedly low scoring game), got 3 80s in the UAE.

I'd wager out of the big 4 he's the one who crosses 50 most often, but gets to 3 figures the least.

 

[Bijed]

Did a bit of statting, below are the Big 4's test batting stats since 01/01/14, which was as good a period as I could quickly think of to cover the time since they've all been good international batsmen.

	Innings	Average	HS	50s	100s	50s%	100s%	50+%	100s/50s
Kohli	53	54.04	235	6	10	11%	19%	30%	1.67
Root	69	59.65	254	23	9	33%	13%	46%	0.39
Smith	59	74.16	215	14	15	24%	25%	49%	1.07
Williamson	51	64.86	242*	12	10	24%	20%	43%	0.83

Kohli not coming up quite as well as the others, but that'll change soon if his current form (or anywhere near it) continues. Was surprised by how high KW's average for the period was, had always rated him below Root and Smith, but might have to reconsider him vs Root now.

Edit: To clarify the above, I don't just rate batsmen based on their averages, but in this case KW's was a lot higher than I'd thought.

 

[Zinzan]

I'd say since 2000 South Africa and Australia won tests on the back of their pace bowlers, and Pakistan and England won tests on the back of their spinners. Obviously in each instance they were backed up by the other bowlers, but generally speaking it was Gillespie, Steyn for Saffers and Aus, and Kaneria and Panesar/Swann for Pakistan and England.

Yeah, like I said, I'm talking in context of touring India in 2016, I'm not denying pace bowlers have performed there in the past. i.e. Nash bowling India out for 80 fifteen years back. Just reiterating the point that following what I'd seen in the NZ series, the type of pitches (generally) they were playing on & the nature of the Indian line-up, I never thought the English pacers would do much more than nip a few out with the new ball up front, & it was always going to be whether they had good enough spinners to trouble India. Turns out Rashid did pretty well overall.

Regardless I thought Kohli and Root were equally superb considering the quite different challenges they each faced.

 

[Slifer]

Damn Smith really leaving the others in the shade. Smith IMO passed the test vs RSA. If he does decent (40+) in India next year then IMO his preeminence would be unquestionable!!!!

 

[Bijed]

Yeah, I'd in the past been inclined to talk down Smith for the various reasons often given, but in the last little while I've become a less bitter soul and appreciated the ridiculous success he's been having.

Regarding Root, I'm as frustrated by his poor conversion as anyone, but I think he gets slightly too much flak for it as it's not like he's doing the full Watson and getting out for 30-50, he's still posting a legitimately good score. I think we're just inclined to want much more not just because we know he's capable of it but inexplicably doesn't deliver, but because our top and middle order don't make sizeable contributions often enough, so we often need him to go way beyond 70-80 to make up for other's lack of runs i.e. he doesn't paper over the cracks enough and whilst it's not his fault that he has to, it's his fault that he doesn't do so more often.

 

[Zinzan]

Did a bit of statting, below are the Big 4's test batting stats since 01/01/14, which was as good a period as I could quickly think of to cover the time since they've all been good international batsmen.

	Innings	Average	HS	50s	100s	50s%	100s%	50+%	100s/50s
Kohli	53	54.04	235	6	10	11%	19%	30%	1.67
Root	69	59.65	254	23	9	33%	13%	46%	0.39
Smith	59	74.16	215	14	15	24%	25%	49%	1.07
Williamson	51	64.86	242*	12	10	24%	20%	43%	0.83

Kohli not coming up quite as well as the others, but that'll change soon if his current form (or anywhere near it) continues. Was surprised by how high KW's average for the period was, had always rated him below Root and Smith, but might have to reconsider him vs Root now.

Edit: To clarify the above, I don't just rate batsmen based on their averages, but in this case KW's was a lot higher than I'd thought.

Don't be fooled by KW's average as that query is very general.

Here's a much more telling stat for me.

If we can all agree that since 2000 the best 5 tests sides have been Australia, England, South Africa, India & Pakistan (in no order), this is where Root & Smith really show their worth, with Kohli not far behind.

In fact Root & Smith have the best records against top quality opposition of all batsmen since 2000s, both averaging over 55. Meanwhile, against top opposition Kohli averages 51 & KW way down below 40.

In KW's case, he generally relies on murdering relatively weak Windies and SL attacks, and he did admittedly do well on some roads in Australia in 2015.(Not so well in the more difficult deck in the Adelaide Test though).

I do think this is a fair indicator that at least against the best opposition out there, Smith, Root & Kohli (not far behind) are well ahead of KW, who only comes closer once the Windies, SL, NZ & the minnows are brought into the equation. Hell even Ross Taylor has done better against the top sides than KW if we're honest about it.

Best average with min 2000 runs vs. Eng/Aus/Pak/SA/India since the year 2000

 

[Bijed]

Fair play, I was really going for the 50's/100's thing to confirm Furball's point about Root, but included the other stats for completeness and probably didn't look into them in enough detail.

I'm personally less inclined than many to disregard to whatever extent runs against alleged minnows as they can certainly still bowl well and you've still got to work to score the runs, but I don't want to argue over that.

I do think it's fairer here to look at their stats over a more recent period, as they're all acknowledged to have improved massively after fairly average starts, so I've rerun your table with a same start date as I used earlier (and the qualification reduced to 1000 runs)



KW stats are much better here, though still comfortably behind the others, so I'm happy to conclude that he's not better than Roooooot after all

Also realised that my first run of the stats missed Smith's ton in the ongoing test, not that I've cast him in a bad light because of this.

 

[Zinzan]

Yup, even your adjusted query doesn't close the gap Root & Smith have over KW when we consider top opposition... if just widens it.

McCullum's numbers are a bit deceptive there too, since he had a habit of murdering Indian attacks.

its still a clear cut fab four FFS


can't make bold claims every time one of them has a good series and one of them has a dud one ya fickle fool

wait til one of their averages dips to 45 before declaring him out of the four

I really do think it's fair to say as of this moment if we're purely talking Test cricket that in spite of Kohli's recent move closer to the pack, that Root & Smith are the two best Test bats currently across all conditions & against the best opposition.

I really don't think that's a fickle thing to say or based on just one recent series either... I think there enough recent evidence to suggest when it comes to the toughest opposition, those two are ahead with Kohli not too far behind them.

 

[Bijed]

Yup, even your adjusted query doesn't close the gap Root & Smith have over KW when we consider top opposition... if just widens it.

Yeah, I edited my post I think whilst you were typing this to acknowledge that. Btw I wasn't particularly arguing against your Root vs KW statement, just felt that the exact stats you used weren't necessarily the best to make that assertion. Turned out to be right enough though. Sorry if I came across badly there.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, I edited my post I think whilst you were typing this to acknowledge that. Btw I wasn't particularly arguing against your Root vs KW statement, just felt that the exact stats you used weren't necessarily the best to make that assertion. Turned out to be right enough though. Sorry if I came across badly there.

Not at all.

 

[Slifer]

As a nice little caveat, I think Smith is the only one averaging above 50 away from home. Plus if I'm not mistaken, Smith also averages 40+ vs all comers. I'm still a huge fan of Virat but no doubt Smith is the boss as of now.

 

[Zinzan]

I'm still a huge fan of Virat but no doubt Smith is the boss as of now.

Why Smith & not "Root and Smith?" Their records against top opposition is virtually the same only that Smith tons up more and Root scores more consistently.

 

[Slifer]

Smith averages 6 runs more and damn near 60. Smith also has a better away record. And let's face it 17 hundreds in 49 tests is just insane!!! No doubt Root is a class act, as evidenced by his recent performance vs India but Smith is the man (for now).

 

[Jono]

I think the fab 4 is a fab 4 but Smith has a gap at 1 ahead of the other 3. I don't think that's an outrageous statement right now. Tons do matter.

 

[Riggins]

Daylight understates how big the gap is.

 

[Jono]

If he does well against the two best test bowlers in the world (as per the ICC rankings ) in India, it'll be even bigger. Based on how he played in Lanka, he's every chance.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah, India at home are certainly borderline great. If Smith can at the very least average 45+ that's icing on the cake.

 

[Jono]

Yeah just needs a Root-esque tour really.

 

[Johnners]

Interesting that all of the England batsmen on Bijed's query have a relatively low 50's/100 conversion rate. I don't follow them too closely outside of ashes series but i'm assuming they often get to 300ish with no centurions but 2/3 players making 50's?

 

[Burgey]

Daylight understates how big the gap is.

Riggggggggggsssssssssyyyyyyyyy

Still sledging Hales?