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*Official* English Football Season 2016-17

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I was over in England when they played each other a heap of times - was it a Champions League semi or something with two legs? Then the Cup Final a few weeks after, as well as a league game. All in like a month and a half.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
I'm not bored of watching the matches. I do get sick of the build up and forced "romance" of it all though.
I think this is kind of how I feel about a lot of sport generally actually. Once I make myself sit down and watch a game of something more often than not I tend to really enjoy it. It's the endless charade of it being made out to be something important, grandiose or, indeed, romantic that really turns me off.
 

OverratedSanity

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Pleased about the Clasico time change. Means that hardcore fans like Pratters and I can watch it without having to stay up till 4 am.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I was over in England when they played each other a heap of times - was it a Champions League semi or something with two legs? Then the Cup Final a few weeks after, as well as a league game. All in like a month and a half.
Yeah they had 2 legs of a Champions League semi, Copa del Rey final and league game in the space of about a month.

At least it's not Scotland where you play each other 4 times in the league plus cup competitions. The Scottish Cup semi was the sweetest win imaginable but was also special because it was only the 2nd meeting in 4 years; this season we'll have played them 3 times before 2016 is out.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Still don't understand on what basis he got a retrial tbh, not that I have tried too hard to find out - will make the effort to now though
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
An annoying conflation of "not guilty" and "innocent" pervading social media at the moment, with people on both sides of the argument being guilty (heh) of this.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
No, I don't think it's out yet. This except from the Telegraph seems to explain the reasoning behind things.

Normally in trials involving ***ual offences, a complainant's ***ual history is not put before a jury.

But Evans's legal team sought permission under Section 41 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act to question the complainant at his new trial about the statements the two men had made.

To allow the application, the court would have to be satisfied that the issue was one of consent, the behaviour to which they relate was either alleged to have taken place at or about the same time as the alleged offence or is so similar to the complainant's behaviour at that time that it cannot reasonably be explained as coincidence.


"They all describe a woman who in May and June 2011, having been out drinking, engaged in ***ual intercourse with her in particular positions and used a distinctive expression demanding intercourse with her harder," Lady Justice Hallett said.

"Their accounts sufficiently close resemblance to the appellant's account as to make the evidence 'so similar' that it cannot be reasonably explained as a coincidence."

Evans' barrister relied upon the "striking detail" of the statements given by the two men when compared with his client's account.

The court heard that on the day Evans was convicted of rape, a man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, contacted police as he believed the conviction was wrong.

"The complainant had slept with him so soon after the rape, which he thought inconsistent with her being raped, and he thought, wrongly as he now accepts, that she was motivated by greed," Lady Justice Hallett said.

The man said he met the woman at Zu bar in Rhyl and after drinking heavily she offered him a "good time" but she had no recollection the next morning of what happened.

A second man provided a statement stating he had been in a casual relationship with the complainant for a few months in early 2011 - and had *** with her two nights before Evans' alleged rape.

Last year he made a further statement describing the woman as a "confident ***ual partner", adding that she would take control, changing positions.

Eleanor Laws QC, representing the Crown, opposed the application and said the described ***ual activity was "far from unusual" and that the "fresh evidence" of the two men was "not credible" and was not "sufficiently consistent" with Evans's account.

"Ms Laws suggests the delay in the witnesses coming forward with the new detail bears all the hallmarks of witnesses being fed information by people close to the appellant so as to make statements that would support another appeal," Lady Justice Hallett said.

"It may well be a rare case in which it will be appropriate to indulge in this kind of forensic examination of ***ual behaviour with others.

"In our judgement this is potentially such a rare case. The requirements of Section 41 must give way to the requirements of a fair trial.

"Relevant and admissible evidence cannot be excluded. For those reasons we have concluded that this appeal must be allowed."
For my money, it would appear that the court have got this absolutely right, and have interpreted the rule as presumably was intended when it was drafted. Not so sure how I feel about the rule itself though.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No, I don't think it's out yet. This except from the Telegraph seems to explain the reasoning behind things.



For my money, it would appear that the court have got this absolutely right, and have interpreted the rule as presumably was intended when it was drafted. Not so sure how I feel about the rule itself though.
My initial reaction is pretty much the opposite of that - I think it's a good rule, but one that really should only be invoked in the most exceptional of circumstances - maybe we'll learn a bit more now, but the comments in that extract suggest to me this one shouldn't have got past the test

It's a difficult one - it surprised me he was convicted in the first place, although I have little doubt of his guilt given the way rape is now defined
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
My initial reaction is pretty much the opposite of that - I think it's a good rule, but one that really should only be invoked in the most exceptional of circumstances - maybe we'll learn a bit more now, but the comments in that extract suggest to me this one shouldn't have got past the test

It's a difficult one - it surprised me he was convicted in the first place, although I have little doubt of his guilt given the way rape is now defined
Yeah, in fairness, I'll reserve judgement to some extent until I am able to read the actual judgment in its entirety before giving it my full endorsement. On the face of things though, this seems to be to be the exact type of situation the rule was presumably designed for, so it's no surprise to see it engaged here. In any event, like you allude to, though I believe Evans did it (and I suspect plenty of the jury did as well), it doesn't surprise me at all that he was acquitted here. Room for doubt as to his guilt etc... even if I suspect he probably did it.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I spent my walk home this evening trying to envisage a set of circumstances where I would accept it was reasonable for s41 to be invoked, and I have to admit I struggled to think of one - as I say I do believe the safety net should be there as there must be situations where it would be appropriate to allow such cross-examination, but if they are anything other than truly exceptional then you come to down to the ludicrous situation we had when I first qualified where any female who enjoys having *** or does it for a living effectively can't be raped, and that can't possibly be right
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Yeah, in fairness, I'll reserve judgement to some extent until I am able to read the actual judgment in its entirety before giving it my full endorsement. On the face of things though, this seems to be to be the exact type of situation the rule was presumably designed for, so it's no surprise to see it engaged here. In any event, like you allude to, though I believe Evans did it (and I suspect plenty of the jury did as well), it doesn't surprise me at all that he was acquitted here. Room for doubt as to his guilt etc... even if I suspect he probably did it.
The only question is whether or not the victim was in a state to be able to consent.

He admitted in both trials to having *** with her.

I don't get what possible relevance her *** life with partners has to whether or not she was raped while completely off her face.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I don't get what possible relevance her *** life with partners has to whether or not she was raped while completely off her face.
It will be interesting to see on what basis Lady Justice Hallett disagrees with thee, me and every other right-minded citizen of our divided nation
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
The only question is whether or not the victim was in a state to be able to consent.

He admitted in both trials to having *** with her.

I don't get what possible relevance her *** life with partners has to whether or not she was raped while completely off her face.
This was not the only question. Establishing there was no consent on the part of the victim is only one part of securing a conviction for rape.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
And even if it was the only question, evidence which questions the reliability of a key witness' own evidence is directly relevant in any kind of criminal proceeding. As I said I'm not sure I agree with the rule engaged here, but it's plainly obvious why it exists.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
But I don't get why the previous ***ual behaviour of a victim has anything to do with the reliability of their evidence
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
But I don't get why the previous ***ual behaviour of a victim has anything to do with the reliability of their evidence
It's a boy who cried wolf thing, innit. Not an especially convincing justification for the rule, but I'm sure that's the rationale no less.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
The one thing I'll say in his defence is that I don't understand how at the original trial his mate was acquitted.
 

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