***Official*** New Zealand tour of Zimbabwe and South Africa 2016

[Hurricane]

@mrmister

Lol. Fine for the potential giggles if he scores 99 lets make it 100 for the match.

I am certain to lose this as batting last on a cracking pitch will be deadly.

Still a bets a bet and it is only for a month and how bad can your avatar selection be? I won't tell you which of my overrated Xi I detest the most.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, I've probably been the biggest critic of Southee on the forum, but **** Bracewell should be sidelined before Southee if there's a better option.

 

[hendrix]

Man I'm usually pretty harsh on Bracewell but I think he's bowled ok this test.

 

[Prince EWS]

Wait, just because Wagner has bowled brilliantly this year doesn't mean he didn't have an iffy period in 2014/2015.

The thing about Wagner is from a statistical standpoint he's just steadily got better and better as his Test career has progressed, including the period right before he was dropped (save one bad game).

Year by year bowling averages:

2012: 52.25
2013: 36.31
2014: 27.36
2015: 26.00
2016: 18.69

I have never rated him and long maintained NZ should be looking for better so I've always defended the dropping, but in hindsight it looks really bad. I think the selectors were kind of on my wavelength and looking for any excuse to drop him for more exciting players, and it's not really a great way to run a team.

It's one of those times where a dropping seemed slightly harsh but justifiable at the time and looks batshit insane in hindsight, but sometimes hindsight actually does give a better look at these things. Even as a massive Wagner hater I can admit they got that one wrong.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, I've probably been the biggest critic of Southee on the forum, but **** Bracewell should be sidelined before Southee if there's a better option.

Man I'm usually pretty harsh on Bracewell but I think he's bowled ok this test.

Bracewell's not really in the team just to bowl either. By all means drop him but I think dropping him for just the next best bowler would leave a pretty long tail given Santner is being picked more as a spinner than anything else.

 

[StephenZA]

Man I`m pissed off I have to go to work today... can`t just stay home and watch this.

 

[Zinzan]

Man I'm usually pretty harsh on Bracewell but I think he's bowled ok this test.

Think it's fair to say he's outbowled Southee in this series to date, but he has been pretty damn terrible since Hobart.

 

[Bahnz]

The thing about Wagner is from a statistical standpoint he's just steadily got better and better as his Test career has progressed, including the period right before he was dropped (save one bad game).

Year by year bowling averages:

2012: 52.25
2013: 36.31
2014: 27.36
2015: 26.00
2016: 18.69

I have never rated him and long maintained NZ should be looking for better so I've always defended the dropping, but in hindsight it looks really bad. I think the selectors were kind of on my wavelength and looking for any excuse to drop him for more exciting players, and it's not really a great way to run a team.

It's one of those times where a dropping seemed slightly harsh but justifiable at the time and looks batshit insane in hindsight, but sometimes hindsight actually does give a better look at these things. Even as a massive Wagner hater I can admit they got that one wrong.

The Wagner dropping was about more than just his test stats. He started bowling complete pies and his FC numbers fell to bits in 14/15 , and that was definitely hovering in the selectors minds. I agree though that in retrospect the selectors should've backed him to come right (especially given that he was already starting to return to form for Otago by the end of the 2014/15 season).

 

[Hurricane]

well I hope we can scrap past 123 for 5 yet even that iconic milestone seems a mile away. It will be a real shame if we lose this series. We are a good team and we are in the immortal words of dingdong trying our hardest. The cricketing gods owe us better than this.

 

[Prince EWS]

The Wagner dropping was about more than just his test stats. His FC numbers fell to bits in 14/15, and that was definitely hovering in the selectors minds. I agree though that in retrospect the selectors should've backed him to come right (especially given that he was already starting to return to form for Otago by the end of the 2014/15 season).

Yeah, there were lots of little things we used to justify at the time, including that, but I was really quick to trigger because I've never thought he was good enough (he'd be yet to debut if I'd be in charge of selection this whole time), and that's just bad process. People on the forum (loved Henry) and Hesson (loves Bracewell) had different motivations, but at the end of the day it was poor.

 

[Zinzan]

Bracewell's not really in the team just to bowl either. By all means drop him but I think dropping him for just the next best bowler would leave a pretty long tail given Santner is being picked more as a spinner than anything else.

Only problem with that argument is you're alluding to his potential as a batsman as opposed to his actual returns. He does afterall only average 13 in his 43 innings to date without a 50, which I think is worse than Boult and only marginally better than Wagner.

 

[Athlai]

Wagner's been pretty damn good since India came in early 2014 IIRC, but it was just assumed he's only do well against poor quality opposition, which is why he missed tests vs. England and Australia (until the last where he took 6 wickets).

The last 3 years he's taken 69 wickets @ 24...by far NZ's best bowler.

Wagner also took some jammy wickets too. I think the majority of CW was fine with him either playing or not playing. He was hardly quite in the form he has shown in Zimbabwe/SA and we actually had a few guys knocking doors down for that 3rd seamer role.

 

[Zinzan]

The Wagner dropping was about more than just his test stats. He started bowling complete pies and his FC numbers fell to bits in 14/15 , and that was definitely hovering in the selectors minds. I agree though that in retrospect the selectors should've backed him to come right (especially given that he was already starting to return to form for Otago by the end of the 2014/15 season).

Yeah he had some pretty dismal returns playing county cricket in England in the 2015 off-season as well which wouldn't have given the selectors much confidence.

 

[hendrix]

Bracewell's not really in the team just to bowl either. By all means drop him but I think dropping him for just the next best bowler would leave a pretty long tail given Santner is being picked more as a spinner than anything else.

I could be wrong but all there is to Bracewell's batting is a nice looking technique. Reckon Henry et al are in the same ballpark.

 

[Prince EWS]

Only problem with that argument is you're alluding to his potential as a batsman as opposed to his actual returns. He does afterall only average 13 in his 43 innings to date without a 50, which I think is worse than Boult and only marginally better than Wagner.

Yeah but this is just another argument to suggest he should be dropped for another allrounder -- he's not performing with the bat. I don't think the selectors are just picking him as the fourth bowler.

 

[hendrix]

Yeah, there were lots of little things we used to justify at the time, including that, but I was really quick to trigger because I've never thought he was good enough (he'd be yet to debut if I'd be in charge of selection this whole time), and that's just bad process. People on the forum (loved Henry) and Hesson (loves Bracewell) had different motivations, but at the end of the day it was poor.

yeah I loved Henry but I was also a massive hater of Wagner.

 

[hendrix]

Yeah but this is just another argument to suggest he should be dropped for another allrounder -- he's not performing with the bat. I don't think the selectors are just picking him as the fourth bowler.

Man we want bowling allrounders and batting allrounders and it's really ****ing moot at this stage since our next best middle order batsmen (Anderson and Henry) are allrounders anyway and noone is pushing for Bracewell's spot except for Craig, who is also part of the Can Bat crew.

 

[Bahnz]

well I hope we can scrap past 123 for 5 yet even that iconic milestone seems a mile away. It will be a real shame if we lose this series. We are a good team and we are in the immortal words of dingdong trying our hardest. The cricketing gods owe us better than this.

I don't think we are without Soult. Williamson is brilliant, and Watling is one of the better keeper bats in the world. But there are so many holes in the side right now. Guptill is mud and always will be. Nicholls is...let's just say he's not as good as Baz at 5. Santner isn't good enough at either batting or bowling for the allrounder position he's taking.

We were a dangerous side when we could rely on our bowlers to keep the opposition to under 600 across two innings. But with the unwelcome return of Tim Sami and with Boult still a long way off his best, we can't hide the weaknesses in our batting anymore. I'd say 6th is about where we belong right now.

 

[Zinzan]

Wagner also took some jammy wickets too. I think the majority of CW was fine with him either playing or not playing. He was hardly quite in the form he has shown in Zimbabwe/SA and we actually had a few guys knocking doors down for that 3rd seamer role.

Funny you say that because what I used to think was him being jammy, & I refer to his 135km bumpers has turned out to occur far too often now for it to be jammy anymore. Although I do take your point that he has improved as time has gone on. .

 

[straw man]

Yeah having all four seamers who can slog a few but generally can't be relied upon to contribute with bat kinda sucks. Throwing in a bowler who looks vaguely like a batsman, tries hard but averages 13 doesn't help with that. Craig is our only bowler who can actually bat.

Generally we'd hope to, and have been able to, rely on just the top 3 (or 2) seamers to do the job. That would be preferable. However with the side balanced as it is currently, the lack of middle-order options, our other two all-rounders coming back from injury, S&B struggling ... it makes sense to play our very best four seamers.