Official Rugby Thread

[Hurricane]

Most underrated

1) Buck Shelford
2) Sella
4) Blanco
5) Mike Brown
6) Brad Weber

 

[Zinzan]

I'm such a huge Buck Shelford fan Cane, and honestly doubt anyone outside Grizz Wylie actually underrates him. It pained me to put Zinzan ahead of him, but it's probably fair enough considering Zinzan had every part of the no.8 game covered, with that x-factor sprinkled on top. That home series against SA in 1994 was when Zinzan sneaked ahead of Buck for mine, I'll never forget his dominance in that series.

 

[Francis]

Taine Randell > Zinzan Brooke & Buck Shelford

 

[Zinzan]

Lol. Only in the same universe that Leon MacDonald > Danie Gerber at centre.

 

[Francis]

Zinzan... what about your all-time rugby union XV? Who'd be in that?

 

[hendrix]

100% *** ****** I reckon

 

[Zinzan]

Zinzan... what about your all-time rugby union XV? Who'd be in that?

Might to an all-time XV later on which would include the likes of Gareth Edwards at half & Meads at lock, but for now;

My Greatest XV since watching (around 1986).....

1 Topo Rodriguez
2 Sean Fitzpatrick
3 Os du Randt
4 John Eales
5 Martin Johnson
6 Richard Hill
7 Richie McCaw
8 Zinzan Brooke
9 Joost van der Westhuizen
10 Dan Carter
11 Jonah Lomu
12 Tim Horan
13 Danie Gerber
14 David Campese
15 Serge Blano


Toughest calls were going with Richard Hill at 6. Was tempted to put Michael Jones there, but I think Hill's work so often went unnoticed. And Danie Gerber at centre ahead of the Irish Charmer. Also, it pained me to put Campese ahead of Kirwan, but's it's probably about right.

Jonah makes it base on his peak form, but if I was judging an entire career I might have looked elsewhere.

In the final wash, 5 All-blacks, 3 Wallabies, 3 Springboks, 2 Poms, 1 Argie, 1 Frenchman probably feels about right.

 

[Zinzan]

Some honourable mentions;

Naas Botha, Hugo Porta, Phillip Sella, Brian O'Driscoll, Keith Wood, Jason Leonard, Michael Jones, Christian Cullen, John Kirwan, Victor Matfield

 

[Francis]

Might to an all-time XV later on which would include the likes of Gareth Edwards at half & Meads at lock, but for now;

My Greatest XV since watching (around 1986).....

1 Topo Rodriguez
2 Sean Fitzpatrick
3 Os du Randt
4 John Eales
5 Martin Johnson
6 Richard Hill
7 Richie McCaw
8 Zinzan Brooke
9 Joost van der Westhuizen
10 Dan Carter
11 Jonah Lomu
12 Tim Horan
13 Danie Gerber
14 David Campese
15 Serge Blano


Toughest calls were going with Richard Hill at 6. Was tempted to put Michael Jones there, but I think Hill's work so often went unnoticed. And Danie Gerber at centre ahead of the Irish Charmer. Also, it pained me to put Campese ahead of Kirwan, but's it's probably about right.

Jonah makes it base on his peak form, but if I was judging an entire career I might have looked elsewhere.

In the final wash, 5 All-blacks, 3 Wallabies, 3 Springboks, 2 Poms, 1 Argie, 1 Frenchman probably feels about right.

Thanks for that.

I was a bit surprised with du Randt over Olo Brown. du Randt was the only player I ever saw who could handle Carl Hayman. I'd have Olo Brown in there, and it would be a fight between Rodriguez and Randt. Rodriguez was also underrated in the work he did around the ground.

Number 6 is hard: I think you got it right putting Hill over Jones. But someone you could consider is Abdel Benazzi. He played second tower, 6, and 8. A wonderful athlete... But I guess Hill was the right choice.

You could have Sella and Garber as your centers. But Horan's okay, I guess...

Campese over Kirwan makes sense. Kirwan mutilated Campese in 1988, but Kiwis always ALWAYS overstate the dominance of their players. For instance, in the 1993 Bledisloe Cup, Campese made an incredible run at the forward pack, beat a few players, sucked everyone in, scooted out of the ruck, fell into the five-eighth position on the blindside... and a simple through the hands and Australia had a try. A great play!

Yes, there was a moment late in the Test where Grant Fox put a kick behind Campese, the ball took a lucky bounce and fell to Inga going at full pace, Campo eventually got him down, Inga got one hand free and was able to offload. It's completely ridiculous to me that so much would be made about a winger who was able to get his hand free and offload the ball, especially when the ball took a lucky bounce.

Campo had his victories over Kirwan too - the 1991 World Cup Semi Final, for instance - where he did his famous diagonal run that turned Kirwan inside-out. And in 1989, when he went down the blinside with NFJ, NFL put in a grubber and Campo sprinted onto it. Campo had some big victories over Kiwi opponents.

That said, I would actually be tempted to put Kirwan in there instead of Lomu, and have Campese and Kirwan my wingers!

But yeah... thanks for that.

 

[Zinzan]

I do rate Olo Brown incredibly highly and Karl Hayman is not far off, but i think 1) I was possibly subconsciously not wanting too many Kiwis in the team and 2) I've been very influenced by my uncle who was a top level prop and he used to gush over Topo Rodriguez's technique. I was just a nipper when I saw him late in his career playing for Aust.

Re: Campo, for me he makes it based more on his early career and then of course his brilliant touches when it really mattered in '91, but he was made to look like a muppet by both Kirwan and Inga late in his career more so than vice versa, must be said. The first game I ever went to was in 1986 at Eden Park and I remember Camp dummying and scoring near the corner right in front of me in the old terraces. Pretty sure that was the last time NZ lost at Eden Park (aside from the French in '94).

Lomu for me has to be there simply because at his best there was no rival, but as I mentioned, If I was looking more for consistency and longevity, then Kirwan's a good argument to partner Campo.

I wouldn't play Phillip Sella out of his best position when there's someone as classy as Horan who was a 2nd/five specialist. Not sure anyone else ever mastered that position better than he.

 

[Francis]

I do rate Olo Brown incredibly highly and Karl Hayman is not far off, but i think 1) I was possibly subconsciously not wanting too many Kiwis in the team and 2) I've been very influenced by my uncle who was a top level prop and he used to gush over Topo Rodriguez's technique. I was just a nipper when I saw him late in his career playing for Aust.

Re: Campo, for me he makes it based more on his early career and then of course his brilliant touches when it really mattered in '91, but he was made to look like a muppet by both Kirwan and Inga late in his career more so than vice versa, must be said. The first game I ever went to was in 1986 at Eden Park and I remember Camp dummying and scoring near the corner right in front of me in the old terraces. Pretty sure that was the last time NZ lost at Eden Park (aside from the French in '94).

Lomu for me has to be there simply because at his best there was no rival, but as I mentioned, If I was looking more for consistency and longevity, then Kirwan's a good argument to partner Campo.

I wouldn't play Phillip Sella out of his best position when there's someone as classy as Horan who was a 2nd/five specialist. Not sure anyone else ever mastered that position better than he.

Hmm... I don't know if I agree with Lomu having no rival. To me, the three greatest *** ******* wingers are Kirwan, Lomu, and Wilson (Jeff). I honestly think Jeff Wilson was just as effective a winger, it's just that he was conventional. In fact, Wilson was probably the most complete player to every play wing. The problem for Wilson is simply that he was conventional.

Lomu was a one off - a spectacle. He could do things no other wing could do, because he was built like a second-rower, and could run incredibly fast. But he had holes. Like Campese and Kirwan before him, his defence was suspect. People remember his '95 World Cup, but Lomu had a hideous start to his career in 1994. N'Tamack badly outplayed him and really exposed him. Big Tom Bowman stepped him (a second rower) and scored a try he shouldn't have been allowed to score. He also had zero kicking game.

Likewise, Lomu could do things Kirwan couldn't. But could Lomu ever score the try that Kirwan did against Italy in the 1987 World Cup? Kirwan... the Kirwan who toured Australia in 1988, was a freak!

There's really not much separating the three best Kiwi wingers.

--------

Campo v Kirwan


Kirwan was injured for the 1984 Tour to Australia. Campese was injured for the one-off Test in 1985.

1986
Campo had a poor tour to *** ******* in 1986. He made a horrid mistake in the "Baby Black" Test. But at fullback in that game he did set up Matt Burke (the league convert, not fullback) for a try, which made Kirwan slip over in the mud and look rather silly. In the third Test in Auckland Campo scored a nice consolation try at the end of the Test, slicing his way inside John Kirwan.

1987

I don't recall anything happening in the one-off Test between Campo and Kirwan. Campo, like Folou last year, carried an ankle injury throughout the World Cup.

1988
Complete and utter knock-out victory in all three Tests to Kirwan. I have the second Test of this series on DVD. Campo actually responds well in the first half of the second Test, before Kirwan scores a try in the second half, and also beats Campo all-ends-up!

1989
Campo scores a great try down the blindside with Nick Farr-Jones. After some nice little interplay, Nick Farr-Jones puts through a grubber kick for Campo to run onto.

1990
After a woeful first Test for Australia, Campo was fullback for the second Test and got beaten by Kirwan TWICE. The first was simply Kirwan out-sprinting Campese to the line. The second... John Flett, the Aussie winger, nearly scored one of the greatest tries ever. But he bungled it at the end. NZ went up the other end, Campo misses a tackle on Kirwan. Another knock-out victory to Kirwan. The third Test only one try is scored - Australia end *** *******'s streak.

1991
Campese and Kirwan don't face each other. Dwyer moves Campo to the other wing position. Kirwan has a bad Sydney Test. A Michael Lynagh kick finds him out, and falls into the hands of Egerton. Australia win easily. The second Test... 6-3... the worst Bledisloe Cup Test in the history of the Bledisloe Cup.

World Cup Semi-Final
Campo puts on his greatest performance and completely outdoes Kirwan in the first half. Often forgotten was the heroic effort Kirwan put in during the second half. He really tried to bring *** ******* back into the Test, but Crowley simply didn't have the speed.

1992 Bledisloe Cup

The grand daddy of all Bledisloe Cups! Sean Fitzpatrick rates it his best series he ever played in, despite losing it! Campo faces Inga for the first time. Inga scores a try by powering himself through Campese, but Campo has an awesome Test. He scores one try by following a chip kick NFL put behind Ian Jones. He later plays a role in Tim Horan scoring the winning try by sucking so many forwards towards him it's not funny. Inga did get a try on him, but Campo had a great Test.

As I said, the whole story about Inga sending Campo a picture of his upper-half, and then powering through for an assist in the one-off Bledisloe Test is so overplayed. Inga was lucky to get a good bounce, and I think even if Tim Horan was defending him, he'd have a hard time bringing Inga down at full pace.

 

[Zinzan]

I shall never forget that '92 Bledisloe series. Most notably for the awesome battle of the 2nd-five/centres between Walter Little & Bunce vs. Horan & Jason Little and for this try;

 

[Hurricane]

Campo is incredible and I would treasure his autograph should he give me one.

So many Aussies fear the ABs. My understanding is that the 2015 version of the Wallabies were not allowed to say All Blacks and had to say New Zealand.

Campo hated us. And gave us snide looks. He knew he was better than some of our blokes. Those test matches with Lynagh leading the way, no tries, just penalties were epic. You felt exhausted when they were over. I remember being 10 years old and not knowing who the Wallabies were but the first name the commentators taught us was Campese. And apparently you paused both before and after you said his name for effect.

He had much mana. And there was an aura around him. He came to play and unlike the rest of his sad sack side he expected to win and sometimes single handedly made it come to pass.

He is the great campese. I have used that word a few times in this thread but for me there are only a few greats and they are

Campo
Sella
Blanco
Hastings
Porta

 

[Francis]

Zinzan... Hurricane... your rugby knowledge indicates to me that you're worthy of the Springbok jersey...

Anyway, the big news this week is whether Quade Cooper is playing this weekend in the cursed number 12 jersey for Australia. Personally, the only way I can see Foley being of much use to Australia is if there's a test being settled by penalties. Foley reminds me of Giteau ala 2009, and I was not a fan of Giteau's 2009 five-eighth play.

Cooper can be the biggest liability and the biggest help to Australia... he's a mixed bag. But after last weekend, Australia are desperate for anyone who can create tries for them... even if it's a weak fairy like Cooper.

ps: I should have included Bob Scott in my fourth-string All Blacks side, instead of Gallagher...

NEW ZEALAND

1. Ken Gray / Sir Wilson Whineray / Steve McDowell / Johnny Simpson / Tony Woodcock / Craig Dowd

2 .Sean Fitzpatrick / Has Catley / Kevin Mealamu / Andy Dalton / Hika Reid

3. Olo Brown / Kevin Skinner / Carl Hayman / Gary Knight / Ian Clarke

4. Andy Haden / Richard “Tiny” White / Robin Brooke / Brad Thorn / Stanley Meads

5. Colin Meads / Ian Jones / Gary Whetton / Ali Williams

6. Kel Tremain / Ian Kirkpatrick / Maurice Brownlie / Jerome Kaino / Mark “Cowboy” Shaw / Alan Whetton

7. Richie McCaw / Michael Jones / Waka Nathan / Josh Kronfeld / Murray Mexted

8. Zinzan Brooke / Sir Brian Lochore / Wayne “Buck” Shelford / Keiran Read / Murray Mexted / Jerry Collins / Peter Jones

9. Dave Loveridge / Sid Going / Chris Laidlaw / Graham Bachop / Justin Marshall / Aaron Smith / David Kirk

10. Dan Carter / Grant Fox / Andrew Mehrtons / Earl Kirton / Wayne Smith

11. Jonah Lomu / Ron Jardon / Joe Rokocoko / Bernie Fraser / Sitveni Sivivatu

12. Bert Cooke / Walter Little / John Schuster / Ma’aa Nonu / Warrick Taylor

13. Frank Bunce / Joe Stanley / Bruce Robertson / Tana Umaga / Conrad Smith / Fred Allen

14. John Kirwan / Jeff Wilson / Stu Wilson / Doug Howlett / Brian Williams

15. George Nepia / Don Clarke / Christian Cullen / Bob Scott / Mils Muliana / John Gallagher / Fergie McCormick


This is just off the top of my head. And people like Smudge don't think I know anything about rugby! That's 83 players, you muppet!

 

[hendrix]

There's no point playing Cooper in 12. It's 10 or nothing.

On form he can cope with a rush defense if they're smart about their game plan.

James O'Connor is such a Jesse Ryder at this point. What a waste.

 

[Zinzan]

Foley's perfectly fine at 1st-5, actually think he's been one of Australia's best in the last 12 months. When has Cooper ever been anything but utter mud when facing the ABs? He's the Wallabies Martin Guptill.

 

[Mike5181]

Cooper wouldn't be able to hide on defence at 12.

 

[Zinzan]

Zinzan... Hurricane... your rugby knowledge indicates to me that you're worthy of the Springbok jersey...

Anyway, the big news this week is whether Quade Cooper is playing this weekend in the cursed number 12 jersey for Australia. Personally, the only way I can see Foley being of much use to Australia is if there's a test being settled by penalties. Foley reminds me of Giteau ala 2009, and I was not a fan of Giteau's 2009 five-eighth play.

Cooper can be the biggest liability and the biggest help to Australia... he's a mixed bag. But after last weekend, Australia are desperate for anyone who can create tries for them... even if it's a weak fairy like Cooper.

ps: I should have included Bob Scott in my fourth-string All Blacks side, instead of Gallagher...

1. Gray/Whineray/McDowell/Simpson/
2. Fitzpatrick/Catley/Mealamu/Dalton/Reid
3. Brown/Skinner/Hayman/Dowd/Knight
4. Haden/White/Brooke/Thorn/ S. Meads
5. Meads/Jones/Whetton/Williams/
6. Tremain/Kirkpatrick/Brownlie/Kaino/Shaw/ A. Whetton
7. McCaw/Jones/Nathan/Kronfeld/Mourie/
8. Zinzan/Lochore/Shelford/Mexted/Reid/Jones
9. Loveridge/Going/Laidlaw/Bachop/Marshall/A.Smith
10. Carter/Fox/Merhtons/Kirton/Smith
11. Lomu/Jardon/Howlett/Fraser
12. Cooke/Schuster/Little/Nonu
13. Bunce/Stanley/Robertson/Umaga/C. Smith/F. Allen
14. Kirwan/Wilson/Rokocoko/Wilson/Sivivatu
15. Nepia/Clarke/Cullen/Scott/Gallagher/Muliana

This is just off the top of my head. And people like Smudge don't think I know anything about rugby! I just listed 76 All Blacks in three minutes, you muppet!

Agree with most of these, except the some of the orders.

Pleased you've got Kirton in there, a forgotten man who had some supreme touches.

Aaron Smith would make my top 3 behind Loveridge and Going, and would probably sneak ahead of Going if he didn't get so carried away with that **** box-kick, which almost invariably goes too deep.

Schuster was an amazing running 2nd-5, but it's blasphemy having him ahead of the magic Walter Little.

Stu Wilson ahead of Rokocoko marginally, Stu-y was ahead of his time. He had '2000s" skills in the early 80s. While on wingers, I always felt Doug Howlett was marginally overrated & not sure why given I suppose he had no obvious weakness.

Hayman gets in ahead of Skinner. I've said it before, Skinner's menace was valued in 1956, but many historians note his technical ability wasn't all that great, He was no Ken Gray in that respect.

The most glaring for me is Tremain ahead of Kickpatrick, no way in my team. Kickpatrick makes my all-time AB no. 6.

Number 8s, my order would be Zinzan, Buck, Lochore & Reid, comfortably ahead of Mexted. Reid reached incredible heights in 2013 in particular, was slightly off in the business end of last year, although I suspect he was only 70%, but pleased he seems to be back close to his best as skipper.

 

[hendrix]

Cooper wouldn't be able to hide on defence at 12.

Exactly. While we don't have Nonu to bash him up anymore, he'd be more of a liability at 12 than 10. It's 10 or bust, surely. And frankly, they missed what, 30 tackles last week, 2/3 into the match? It's not like defense is a strong suit anyway...Some of the defense looked lacking in effort, tbh. Zero scrambling. Was weird.

Hopefully they fix their line-out and their forwards pull finger because it's bloody boring to watch when they're that terrible.

 

[Zinzan]

Hopefully they fix their line-out and their forwards pull finger because it's bloody boring to watch when they're that terrible.

Nah *** them & long may it continue. Hand on throat stuff....This is pay-back for all those years when Australia used to own our line-out, almost the entire 2000s (2000-2010). You don't remember those periods when the AB couldn't win line-outs for Jam? I recall it got so bad when John Eales was skipper in the early 2000s, that Australia would actually kick it out as an attacking option, knowing they were better than even odds of winning our throw. Meanwhile we couldn't even dream of stealing one of theirs.