Greatest Limited Overs All-rounder of all time, tournament/voting thread

[harsh.ag]

How are they comparable? Kallis isn't an ATG in his role, but Symonds is...

Top order batsmen are in general more highly rated in terms of batting ability than lower order batsmen. Hence, top order batsmen with high average and high SR are considered better than lower order batsmen with the same attributes. So, for a top order batsman to be ranked comparably, he would have to have either a low average or a low strike rate (with the other attribute being high). Hence, Kallis is comparable to Symonds.

 

[viriya]

He never won the SF. Pakistan lost but his contribution was outstanding.

I am using anecdotal evidence along with stats. Not just mindlessly using stats like you.

Imran wasn't a finisher either. FFS if you haven't seen a batsman play at least read up on them. He was a pretty versatile batsman for the era capable of batting up or down the order although he was a slow starter so better suited up the order but his bowling workload meant that he should bat down the order. Kapil was more of a hitting batsman down the order.

A strike of 80 today is definitely not more than respectable. Your mindless usage of stats is blinding you to the fact that Shakib while better than Cronje and Steve Waugh (as an all rounder) is below the likes of Flintoff, Imran, Kapil, Kallis

I think you are conflating how great Imran/Kapil were in Tests into ODIs. They were both great in ODIs as well but to suggest they are incomparable is a stretch imo. I don't know why you think I only care about stats.. you were the one who started this with a home/away stat breakdown

"Bowling workload" is not something that applies to ODIs btw.

 

[Red]

Top order batsmen are in general more highly rated in terms of batting ability than lower order batsmen. Hence, top order batsmen with high average and high SR are considered better than lower order batsmen with the same attributes. So, for a top order batsman to be ranked comparably, he would have to have either a low average or a low strike rate (with the other attribute being high). Hence, Kallis is comparable to Symonds.

I kind of get what you are trying to say but it's a bit arbitrary.

The main factor here is that Kallis had a significantly lower SR than his contemporaries. He batted slow. That's really not ideal in LO cricket, and I think you know that.

Top order batsmen are in general more highly rated in terms of batting ability than lower order batsmen.

Not necessarily because different roles etc. And anyway, Symonds batted at 5, and the times he went higher in the order he gunned it as well.

 

[viriya]

I'm not a fan of Kallis's ODI batting but the most obvious argument is that he was not as far behind Symonds in batting as Symonds was at bowling compared to Kallis - so Kallis is the better all-rounder.

 

[smash84]

I think you are conflating how great Imran/Kapil were in Tests into ODIs. They were both great in ODIs as well but to suggest they are incomparable is a stretch imo. I don't know why you think I only care about stats.. you were the one who started this with a home/away stat breakdown

"Bowling workload" is not something that applies to ODIs btw.

I am not conflating their ODI and test careers. I just used the home/away breakdown to confirm what I thought about Shakib because I have seen a bit of him (although maybe not as much as Kapil or Imran).. I wasn't using how they batted on the last ball of the 37th over to get a feel for how good they really were. Also I can't see Shakib's bowling really threatening any of the great batsmen of all time, and none of the great bowlers cowering at his sight on the crease.

Bowling express 10 overs at the start and end of the innings definitely takes its toll

 

[Red]

I'm not a fan of Kallis's ODI batting but the most obvious argument is that he was not as far behind Symonds in batting as Symonds was at bowling compared to Kallis - so Kallis is the better all-rounder.

No, he isn't.

Symonds was a significantly better ODI batsman than Kallis, and their bowling is virtually identical in terms of economy and output as far as being 5th choice bowlers is concerned.

Symonds is a significantly more valuable ODI all rounder than Kallis.

 

[viriya]

No, he isn't.

Symonds was a significantly better ODI batsman than Kallis, and their bowling is virtually identical in terms of economy and output as far as being 5th choice bowlers is concerned.

Symonds is a significantly more valuable ODI all rounder than Kallis.

ooook.

 

[honestbharani]

Symonds had no idea as a bowler. Any good batsman will take him apart. Kallis had much better idea as a bowler. And as batsmen, the only thing Symonds was better at is hitting big but it is quite arguable that Kallis performed his role in that RSA side just as well as, if not better than, Symonds did. That WC semi had a very very good Kallis inning somewhere in there which would have been deified had Klusener and Donald not lost their minds. He has had significant innings in most WCs. Symonds only had 2003. You guys are, and have been, over rating Symonds way too much.

 

[mr_mister]

Quarter finals:

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

 

[mr_mister]

a pre-emptive statdump for anyone who feels Harris's batting wasn't worthy enough to allow him to be in the final 8 of this tournament:


Over 34 innings, from May 97 to Feb 99, Harris scored 991 runs @ an average of 66 with 6 fifties.

 

[NUFAN]

Kapil
Watson
Flintoff
Klusener

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kapil
Watson
Flintoff
Klusener

Same

 

[smash84]

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

Imran vs Kapil the only tough one here. Klusener was great for a few years but then just faded away.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

Imran vs Kapil the only tough one here. Klusener was great for a few years but then just faded away.

Same

 

[honestbharani]

Same

Me too

 

[StephenZA]

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

 

[viriya]

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

 

[jimmy101]

Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev
Chris Harris vs Shane Watson

Andrew Flintoff vs Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis vs Lance Klusener

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Kapil
Harry
Viv
Zulu

 

[weldone]

Symonds had no idea as a bowler. Any good batsman will take him apart. Kallis had much better idea as a bowler. And as batsmen, the only thing Symonds was better at is hitting big but it is quite arguable that Kallis performed his role in that RSA side just as well as, if not better than, Symonds did. That WC semi had a very very good Kallis inning somewhere in there which would have been deified had Klusener and Donald not lost their minds. He has had significant innings in most WCs. Symonds only had 2003. You guys are, and have been, over rating Symonds way too much.

Yep couldn't agree more ... I'd also like to mention that Kallis should get even more extra points for his massive longevity especially when compared to someone like Symonds.