***Official*** Australia in New Zealand 2016

[Jord]

Jord, in the case of spinners ugly hoicks can some times be a result of being beaten in the flight and even then deciding to go through with the shot. Not saying this invalidates your point, but this can be a very legitimate skill that the bowler has..

India, I absolutely agree, and a lot of spinners are masters at deceiving the batsman through flight and guile, being able to draw them into a shot that isn't there and taking the wicket. Lyon is to be commended for his control and accuracy, but I'll happily stand by my point that the very fact that batsmen don't respect him is as much the reason as 9 out of his 10 wickets in NZ came from people attempting to hit him to the moon as anything he actually does with the ball. He'll no doubt do the same in the next innings too. I'll stand by the point I made that had Vettori, Herath, Harbhajan been treated with the same lack of respect they'd have had far better results.

There is a reason Lyon doesn't play ODI.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I really can't be bothered being drawn into an argument between someone charging down the wicket, having a massive hoik in the air and being dismissed, versus someone being drawn into a shot and knicking off to first slip. Pointless. I've made my point, backed it up with evidence, apparently am defensive in doing so and I can't be bothered appealing to your egos further.

If your point is that knicks to slip are more valuable wickets than "hoik in the air" or that the former is somehow indicative of being a "better bowler" then you deserve any criticism you're getting

 

[Gob]

I really can't be bothered being drawn into an argument between someone charging down the wicket, having a massive hoik in the air and being dismissed, versus someone being drawn into a shot and knicking off to first slip. Pointless. I've made my point, backed it up with evidence, apparently am defensive in doing so and I can't be bothered appealing to your egos further.

Lyon has done that. In Aust conditions his primary modes of dismissing batsmen are getting them in the cut buy using his height and extra bounce of the pitches and also getting them out caught at short leg while prodding using the same methods. Thats why i specifically asked about those two methods of dismissals. He obviously does not get many wickets by bowling batsmen through the gate but then again you would need tracks with some extreme turn to do that and he does not get them in Aust conditions.

Lyon has obviously taken wickets when batsmen slogging at him (mostly tailenders) but his primary wickets taking methods are the two that i mentioned. If you actually think those two methods are also entirely down to batsmen mistakes, then its end of the road for the argument

 

[indiaholic]

India, I absolutely agree, and a lot of spinners are masters at deceiving the batsman through flight and guile, being able to draw them into a shot that isn't there and taking the wicket. Lyon is to be commended for his control and accuracy, but I'll happily stand by my point that the very fact that batsmen don't respect him is as much the reason as 9 out of his 10 wickets in NZ came from people attempting to hit him to the moon as anything he actually does with the ball. He'll no doubt do the same in the next innings too. I'll stand by the point I made that had Vettori, Herath, Harbhajan been treated with the same lack of respect they'd have had far better results.

There is a reason Lyon doesn't play ODI.

The decision to attack Lyon may also be a strategic one. Real or imagined, the conditions in NZ/SA/AUS are perceived to be pace friendly. teams may view Lyon as the weak link because he is a spinner and not necessarily because he is terrible. In that scenario, the best thing for Lyon is to encourage these tendencies and induce the batsmen into over committing which he seems to be doing pretty well based on the examples you provided.

 

[Gob]

I think he needs to do well against some good batsmen of spin to show he can hold down an end or even take their wickets. I guess we'll see if he's up to it

Like who? Tendulkar and Lara?

Cos he has dismissed most of the current best batsmen

 

[Jord]

Lyon has obviously taken wickets when batsmen slogging at him (mostly tailenders) but his primary wickets taking methods are the two that i mentioned. If you actually think those two methods are also entirely down to batsmen mistakes, then its end of the road for the argument

I take it you haven't actually been watching the matches to date; so you were actually right in the first instance, the games I'm watching are completely different to the games you're watching. Lyon hasn't had the extra bounce nor any turn in the conditions he's been offered in NZ. He has however had a bunch of amateur batsmen run down the wicket at him and give the softest of dismissals in every single innings he's taken wickets in. He's not taken a single wicket in the fashion you've mentioned in the last 20 he's taken.

 

[Jord]

The decision to attack Lyon may also be a strategic one. Real or imagined, the conditions in NZ/SA/AUS are perceived to be pace friendly. teams may view Lyon as the weak link because he is a spinner and not necessarily because he is terrible. In that scenario, the best thing for Lyon is to encourage these tendencies and induce the batsmen into over committing which he seems to be doing pretty well based on the examples you provided.

You really need to see the dismissals to realise how dire they are. You can't consider this anything other than batsman just playing absolutely stupid to the guy. It's different to say Williamson when he's in form using his feet to get to the pitch of the ball and take the spinners on, it's literally "Block, block, block, Oh I should have a swing, swing, out"

 

[Jord]

I'd actually say the way NZ has played Lyon is the second biggest reason we've not been competitive in the two series, behind Southee and Boult being so out of form and listless.

 

[Starfighter]

I'll stand by the point I made that had Vettori, Herath, Harbhajan been treated with the same lack of respect they'd have had far better results.

There is a reason Lyon doesn't play ODI.

Harbhajan and Vettori played a lot of their careers before super powered bats (my 2012 Kahuna looks small compared to the current one), Harbhajan had a fluid elbow, and Vettori and Herath had the advantage of being lefties (you can fire it in and because of the angle it's much harder to hit than off spin, especially for the righties).
Also Lyon hasn't been given a long run in ODI, and not in very favourable circumstances. I wouldn't expect him to do that well against India in ODI, because they are good players of spin, and it's not like he was any worse than our pacers. Against rubbish players of spin like WI or NZ he'd probably do much better.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Also Lyon gets a lot of caught at short-leg wickets in Aus

 

[indiaholic]

If that is the quality/strategy of these batsmen against spin, all the more reason for Lyon to float it up and wait because they will be gifting him their wicket anyways. See, not every batsman has the ability of a Gambhir to keep all options open while dancing down the track, Lyon merely exploits that inadequacy.

 

[Gob]

I take it you haven't actually been watching the matches to date; so you were actually right in the first instance, the games I'm watching are completely different to the games you're watching. Lyon hasn't had the extra bounce nor any turn in the conditions he's been offered in NZ. He has however had a bunch of amateur batsmen run down the wicket at him and give the softest of dismissals in every single innings he's taken wickets in. He's not taken a single wicket in the fashion you've mentioned in the last 20 he's taken.

So you are assuming that the methods of Lyon dismissals in NZ must be/should be the same for his entire career?

 

[Jord]

If that is the quality/strategy of these batsmen against spin, all the more reason for Lyon to float it up and wait because they will be gifting him their wicket anyways. See, not every batsman has the ability of a Gambhir to keep all options open while dancing down the track, Lyon merely exploits that inadequacy.

AWTA; it's no knock on Lyon to point out the fact that he really takes advantage of the fact that batsmen don't respect him and try to slog him out of the attack.

Why are people in this forum so highly strung about criticism about their players?

 

[Spikey]

well it's a theory based in an alternate reality and not on what actually happens

(and given the hard time we give PEWS for the same thing it's only fair)

 

[Gob]

AWTA; it's no knock on Lyon to point out the fact that he really takes advantage of the fact that batsmen don't respect him and try to slog him out of the attack.

Why are people in this forum so highly strung about criticism about their players?

I don't think its due to that. When you make stupid comments on public forums, people tend to react

 

[Starfighter]

Oh, all the wicket fell to slogging clearly. What a bunch of hacks those Indians are. Never could play spin could they?

 

[Flem274*]

anyone else enjoying the australian posters who have being trying so hard to troll this season have been getting trolled all summer by kiwivaper and 'jord"?

 

[Shady Slim]

erasmus was a huge dick that game with LBWs too

honestly why would you bowl your spinner from the erasmus end you're just costing him LBWs

 

[Jord]

well it's a theory based in an alternate reality and not on what actually happens

(and given the hard time we give PEWS for the same thing it's only fair)

I wouldn't consider it an alternate reality; in this reality he struggles against the sides that are capable against spin, his record against Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa isn't anywhere near as good as his career average. He feasts on the Windies, NZ and England.

 

[TheJediBrah]

AWTA; it's no knock on Lyon to point out the fact that he really takes advantage of the fact that batsmen don't respect him and try to slog him out of the attack.

Why are people in this forum so highly strung about criticism about their players?

I don't actually get how it's criticism?

If batsman played him a bit more defensively he'd probably take wickets a little less often, but also go for a lot less runs and his average probably wouldn't be much different. Probably wouldn't really change his effectiveness either. If I were facing him I'd be aggressive too otherwise he'd just bowl to you on the spot all day and eventually get you out with one that bounces/skids/turns more than you thought it would.

Trying to slog him a lot might be the most effective way to play him tbh, and if he takes all his wickets him caught hoicking why does it matter? You're a moron if you think this makes him not as good as if he took more wickets bowled/lbw/caught in slips or whatever.

Jason krejza took a lot of bowled's and he was ****