***Official*** England in South Africa 2015/16

[SeamUp]

Man the knees are jerking hard.

All of the top sides are developing; none are gun standout teams. You'll get games where they look awesome, and you'll get games where they look utterly inept. We're in a weird era of international cricket where teams are, overall, pretty evenly matched -- but because they win by shedloads and lose by shedloads, not because every single game is going down to the wire.

Sometimes perfectly fine teams play poorly. That happened to South Africa early in the series, and it happened to England in this game. Equally, sometimes perfectly fine teams play extremely well (invert the end of the last sentence). No reason to be so incredibly reactionary that you throw out babies with the bathwater.

ABdV failing a couple of times doesn't mean he can't handle the captaincy; he's been perfectly fine doing it in the shorter formats. Maybe he, uhh, just had a bad day at the office, got a good ball, or made a mistake. He's not Superman, and he's not Bradman either. **** happens; after three innings you don't have nearly enough to draw extended conclusions. Similarly, as bad as he's been in the last year, I think it's a mistake to write off Faf as done for good. The guy still averages over 40 in Test cricket, made 86 in Cape Town, and has played some pretty bloody important knocks for South Africa in recent years. He sucked in India and was pretty mediocre here, but to condemn him as a Test cricketer is stupid.

Similarly, one quick ton for Quinton de Kock doesn't mean he's suddenly an amazing Test batsman. He's good, but he has a lot to learn (and I imagine he will).

On the England side, writing off Compton and Taylor to immediately go back to Ian 'Pretty cover drive but averaging 3 in the last year' Bell after a single loss is similarly stupid. Compton has been perfectly fine this series, though he does certainly need to kick on and make the place his own (hey Bayliss, help him out there, hey?). Taylor deserves more than a handful of Tests to prove himself. He's done it at FC level, and he's done it in ODIs. Give him a proper chance to adjust to Test cricket.

As for the opener? Who knows who'll do that for the home summer. I'm gonna say Cook-Compo and bring in Ansari at 3 because Ansari , or give Tom Abell a very premature crack because Somerset, but, uhh, yeah. I'm willing to concede doom and gloom there.

Nah , I just don't think he is a very good captain but I do accept he may have to keep it. And if anything it can weigh heavy on a player. 3 ducks in a row is very rare for AB no matter what anyone says. 1 good ball, 1 decent ball but it is rare for him.

I just never thought of Faf as a test player. He pleasantly surprised but so many of those knocks weren't really winning knocks. I just think SA needs to look to the future. We need the new blood and energy. You cannot have too many players around the same age and we have that with Cook, Amla, AB, Philander, Morkel, Steyn & 1 of Faf/JP

Of course not, who said Da **** was the 2nd coming of Adam..... Gilchrist?

 

[Marius]

Well done to England no matter how much it pains me to say it, but you guys won because you won the key moments more often.

Looking at your re-building job, it has been a pleasure to watch some of your new generation. There are some weak links that need to be addressed to make you a team that can win all around the world for a period of time like we did & other great/v.good teams before us but really thought it was a refreshing English cricket attitude.

For the Proteas, we slowly getting there. We probably needed this defeat to shake us up quicker to see who can cut it and who can't.

Elgar, Cook, Amla, AB, Bavuma , X, De Kock, Piedt, 3 of Philander, Abbott, Rabada, Morkel, Steyn.

Elgar, Cook, Bavuma, de Kock, Rabada can be really pleased with their series/contributions. Those are positives.

We need to say where is Faf & JP in their careers? Do they just play a role in ODI cricket and will that effect them ? I think for a reserve batsman it would seem one of them but I would look to the next generation & say van Zyl get runs in the middle order and push Rossouw, de Bruyn whoever.

We need to find that all-rounder. I think Morris has ability but right now I would say he needs more discipline at the highest level but certainly shown he has a bit about him. On the others - I've said it many times but I am no Wiese, Parnell, Pretorius fan. The future is Savage, Phehlukwayo, Mulder, Galiem. But Savage needs to stay on the park !

Captaincy ! Amla definitely couldn't deal with it. AB has never failed like he did since he took over the captaincy like that (only maybe when he was a youngster. That leaves Elgar and Cook but is it too early to expect them to take on that role ?

On the allrounders, Wiese isn't international quality I think, and Parnell is too erratic. Pretorius should maybe get a go at some point.

Of the young guys, the only one I've seen much of is Phehlukwayo, he is definitely a name to watch. Bowled a great last over in one of the Ram Slam games, can't remember against who though.

Think Faf and JP both need to go spend time in their franchises. I don't think JP has a future in the Test side anymore. Keep him for the LO stuff but not Tests. Faf will be back for Tests, he just needs to go play some franchise cricket and get his confidence back. Right now I think Van Zyl should get a go at number 5, with Rilee as your first back up bat.

Other wise the top 7 is fairly settled, and the bowlers too, come to that.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Amazing performance from Rabada

 

[Black_Warrior]

Great series so far. I wouldn't be too gutted if I were an England fan with 2-1. Yes teams should always aspire for improvement and greatness, but we also have to be realistic. With the team that England has, with such a weak top order, overly reliant on Cook and Root, a 2-1 series win is an excellent result. The arrival of Stokes as a batsman is a major bonus which helps England overcome some of the holes in their batting. Having said that, I still think Compton should be persisted with. As for Hales, not convinced but just out of fairness, I think he should get a home series.

For South Africa, the final test will be massive win simply because of the emergence or at least arrival of so many players. They might have just found a solid opener in Cook at least for the next 2-3 years. Elgar has shown improvement overall in this series.
De Kock got a very good hundred at a crucial stage which at that point in the game, really put South Africa ahead. Anything under 350 at that point and England would have clawed back into the game. Whether he can be a long term WK or not is the question though.
And then of course there's Rabada
What a bowler. What a delight to watch. I think with Steyn's recent injuries and Philander's ftiness record, the emergence of Rabada as a match winning strike bowler is the greatest thing to come out of this series for South Africa. In a few years time I can see him take Steyn's role in the team.

Peidt was good overall, despite a few bad sessions, but looks like a dependable spinner.

Amla's return to sublime form is another good news. Won't read too much into AB. I don't think it's the captaincy. He has been captain in the ODI format for a while and that didn't impact his batting. Just a batter of time. Great batsmen get pairs too. Just life.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I find it hard to believe that England cant find a place for Bell

At his worst, he is better than Hales, Compton & Taylor

His worst is pretty ****ing atrocious.

Just a reminder: Bell averages 33 in 50 tests in the last 4 years. I have no idea why England fans seem to want to go back to him instead of giving others a proper go. He was ****e for a long, long long time.

 

[CapeTown Guy]

Yeah Wiese is someone I really wanted to like, but he just quite good enough. Like a **** Justin Kemp. Parnell, well we all had high hopes for Walleed after he was one of the best players in a pretty good U19 side, but after years of being great one game and then 5 poor ones, he should no longer be in the frame unless he reinvents himself over the next couple of years and comes back a different player. He is too dumb to do something like that though. Good riddance. Pretorius might get a look-in at some point. I haven't seen enough of his bowling to have a genuine opinion, however. His overall numbers are pretty good. I don't know enough of the youngsters mentioned above.

Meanwhile, Morris belongs in international cricket somehow. Not sure how exactly, but he clearly has something about him, both with bat and ball. He does need some fine-tuning, though. A bit rough round the edges, so to speak.

I also think it is premature to write off Faf at this point, particularly if Duminy is the main alternative. I made my opinions on JP clear in his thread... Decent LOI player, awful Test player if he doesnt contribute with the ball.

I don't think Rossouw is far off getting the nod for the nr 5 position for our next series, particularly if he continues to do reasonably well in the shorter stuff. Far more attractive player to watch than say, SvZ, although their FC records are pretty similar. Rillee does have that triple...

 

[Gob]

Yeah but Belly has been a top class bat for years as well wheres you get the feeling Taylor and Hales aren't up for it this level. Compton is fine imo

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah but Belly has been a top class bat for years

No he's not, he's been rubbish for years. He used to be a top class bat say 4-5 years ago, but since then he's done virtually nothing. I don't see anything about Taylor that screams failure asa test batsman. Hasn't had the best series, sure and looked bad on occasion. But he's already shown he's potentially far better than Bell at playing spin. And while he only got one decent score all series, it was a pretty important one. To just fall back to a guy who has simply not delivered anything for ages doesn't make any sense to me. Give Taylor a few more series. If he's still rubbish, think about Bell.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah but Belly has been a top class bat for years as well wheres you get the feeling Taylor and Hales aren't up for it this level. Compton is fine imo

I'm not willing to write Taylor off based on what, alongside Australia I guess, was always going to be his worst venue. If he stays in the side I think he's going to be a really big asset in Asia; the real Test will be whether or not he can play well at home. There's not the bounce on most English decks but there's more swing generally so I think that could go either way, and if he can't hold his own where he's going to play half his games he should be discarded. I'm not sure Bell will still be an option by the time I'd be willing to actually call on Taylor anyway though. Bell in for Hales would be fine, but I'd probably prefer Ballance at this point just because he was taken on tour and didn't play. It'd be weird to have him leapfrogged.

 

[SeamUp]

On the allrounders, Wiese isn't international quality I think, and Parnell is too erratic. Pretorius should maybe get a go at some point.

Of the young guys, the only one I've seen much of is Phehlukwayo, he is definitely a name to watch. Bowled a great last over in one of the Ram Slam games, can't remember against who though.

Think Faf and JP both need to go spend time in their franchises. I don't think JP has a future in the Test side anymore. Keep him for the LO stuff but not Tests. Faf will be back for Tests, he just needs to go play some franchise cricket and get his confidence back. Right now I think Van Zyl should get a go at number 5, with Rilee as your first back up bat.

Other wise the top 7 is fairly settled, and the bowlers too, come to that.

Pretorious bowls around 120-125 and his defence is weaker than Wiese's in batting. Far too loose to succeed at the highest level with the bat in the longer form. If I had to say he had a chance it would be limited overs cricket or T20 cricket because he can certainly hit the ball out the park.

Nice thing about Savage/Phehlukwayo is they have batting techniques that can make it at international level. They probably need to put more numbers down but I remember the great peter Pollock picking players on potential as he had the eye and brain to pick a player with potential and not just pure stats. Not sure our current selection panel have that. Savage is just one of those big match temperament players and whenever he gets on the park he makes contributions for the Dolphins. He got his 5-for recently and has a few 50's. Just needs to stay fit and back up his batting technique with a 100 or two. Phehlukwayo has more x-factor with the bat and will definitely be exciting/risky to watch whereas Savage probably has a more purist technique and can clear the ropes with text book shots whereas Phehlukwayo hits the ball harder. Both young and can still up their pace a bit with the ball but both highly skilled. Seam/swing/cutters. Savage will have more bounce whereas Phehulwayo more skiddy.

You can see Mulder/Galiem in the u19 WC starting tomorrow. Mulder definitely more a batsman but he has the capability to improve some very decent bowling already. I reckon Galiem is more of a batting all-rounder but his bowling has been to the forefront quite a bit already in his junior career. X-Factor with the bat. They will be box office in this u19 WC. Touch wood !

Stiaan v Rilee ! Tough one. I've loved watching Stiaan bat over the years and probably was treated unfairly so probably deserves first go but there is something crazy about Rossouw that I think just wants the international stage. I think he gets bored at franchise level.

 

[Prince EWS]

I think van Zyl could really use some time in domestic cricket. I'm a fan too and I hope he gets a proper crack in the middle order soon, but I fear that if it's too soon it won't work out.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

His worst is pretty ****ing atrocious.

Just a reminder: Bell averages 33 in 50 tests in the last 4 years. I have no idea why England fans seem to want to go back to him instead of giving others a proper go. He was ****e for a long, long long time.

I have loved Bell over the years but I don't want us to go back to him now. Yes we have problems in the top order but I would prefer we gave youngsters a chance rather than recalling a mid 30's bloke who has the record he has in the last 4 years.

 

[Captain_Cook]

Yes we have problems in the top order but I would prefer we gave youngsters a chance rather than recalling a mid 30's bloke who has the record he has in the last 4 years.

To be fair to Bell, he single handedly won England the Ashes in 2013 against a decent Australian attack that caused all sorts of problems to the other batsmen in the top 6.

 

[SeamUp]

I think van Zyl could really use some time in domestic cricket. I'm a fan too and I hope he gets a proper crack in the middle order soon, but I fear that if it's too soon it won't work out.

Think you right. He got lots of starts and always looks calm at the crease but to me has always been one of those quiet guys who needs confidence and backing and I think his inner-belief has taken a blow unfortunately. I am sure we will see him again.

 

[Marius]

Pretorious bowls around 120-125 and his defence is weaker than Wiese's in batting. Far too loose to succeed at the highest level with the bat in the longer form. If I had to say he had a chance it would be limited overs cricket or T20 cricket because he can certainly hit the ball out the park.

Nice thing about Savage/Phehlukwayo is they have batting techniques that can make it at international level. They probably need to put more numbers down but I remember the great peter Pollock picking players on potential as he had the eye and brain to pick a player with potential and not just pure stats. Not sure our current selection panel have that. Savage is just one of those big match temperament players and whenever he gets on the park he makes contributions for the Dolphins. He got his 5-for recently and has a few 50's. Just needs to stay fit and back up his batting technique with a 100 or two. Phehlukwayo has more x-factor with the bat and will definitely be exciting/risky to watch whereas Savage probably has a more purist technique and can clear the ropes with text book shots whereas Phehlukwayo hits the ball harder. Both young and can still up their pace a bit with the ball but both highly skilled. Seam/swing/cutters. Savage will have more bounce whereas Phehulwayo more skiddy.

You can see Mulder/Galiem in the u19 WC starting tomorrow. Mulder definitely more a batsman but he has the capability to improve some very decent bowling already. I reckon Galiem is more of a batting all-rounder but his bowling has been to the forefront quite a bit already in his junior career. X-Factor with the bat. They will be box office in this u19 WC. Touch wood !

Stiaan v Rilee ! Tough one. I've loved watching Stiaan bat over the years and probably was treated unfairly so probably deserves first go but there is something crazy about Rossouw that I think just wants the international stage. I think he gets bored at franchise level.

You're right about Rilee, he's got that X-factor about him. I was at Wanderers last year when he got that hundred against WI. If it hadn't been for AB playing stick cricket, it would have been remembered as one of the knocks of the year.

You might be right, perhaps try Rilee first, let Van Zyl go play a bit in franchise cricket and get his mojo back.

 

[Dan]

Whatever happened to Obus Pienaar?

 

[Marius]

Whatever happened to Obus Pienaar?

Playing for Free State in the amateur comp.

 

[Stefan9]

No he's not, he's been rubbish for years. He used to be a top class bat say 4-5 years ago, but since then he's done virtually nothing. I don't see anything about Taylor that screams failure asa test batsman. Hasn't had the best series, sure and looked bad on occasion. But he's already shown he's potentially far better than Bell at playing spin. And while he only got one decent score all series, it was a pretty important one. To just fall back to a guy who has simply not delivered anything for ages doesn't make any sense to me. Give Taylor a few more series. If he's still rubbish, think about Bell.

Talor has been exposed pretty badly against the quick stuff imho. I would be looking for a new nr.5 and opener if I was england.

 

[Stefan9]

Pretorious bowls around 120-125 and his defence is weaker than Wiese's in batting. Far too loose to succeed at the highest level with the bat in the longer form. If I had to say he had a chance it would be limited overs cricket or T20 cricket because he can certainly hit the ball out the park.

Nice thing about Savage/Phehlukwayo is they have batting techniques that can make it at international level. They probably need to put more numbers down but I remember the great peter Pollock picking players on potential as he had the eye and brain to pick a player with potential and not just pure stats. Not sure our current selection panel have that. Savage is just one of those big match temperament players and whenever he gets on the park he makes contributions for the Dolphins. He got his 5-for recently and has a few 50's. Just needs to stay fit and back up his batting technique with a 100 or two. Phehlukwayo has more x-factor with the bat and will definitely be exciting/risky to watch whereas Savage probably has a more purist technique and can clear the ropes with text book shots whereas Phehlukwayo hits the ball harder. Both young and can still up their pace a bit with the ball but both highly skilled. Seam/swing/cutters. Savage will have more bounce whereas Phehulwayo more skiddy.

You can see Mulder/Galiem in the u19 WC starting tomorrow. Mulder definitely more a batsman but he has the capability to improve some very decent bowling already. I reckon Galiem is more of a batting all-rounder but his bowling has been to the forefront quite a bit already in his junior career. X-Factor with the bat. They will be box office in this u19 WC. Touch wood !

Stiaan v Rilee ! Tough one. I've loved watching Stiaan bat over the years and probably was treated unfairly so probably deserves first go but there is something crazy about Rossouw that I think just wants the international stage. I think he gets bored at franchise level.

So Savage would be pollock esque while phehlukwayo klusener esque?

 

[StephenZA]

Assuming fill fitness of all the players, then the SA team has got a number of decisions to make.

1) They have to stick with Cook now for at least 2/3 yrs even if its only while other younger players establish themselves.

2) QDK must be given the gloves for an extended period, I know he has weaknesses; he needs to work on his keeping, especially for the spin bowlers. He also needs to keep his head while batting, but considering where he was when he started to where he is now, I do think he will continue to improve and be SA keeper for the next 8-10 yrs. He also gives SA options without any genuine all-rounders currently available.

3) Are Faf and Duminy`s experience good enough to warrant there place in the team above van Zyl or Rillee at position 5/6? For me Duminy must stick to the shorter formats. Faf maybe still has a chance but what he has to do is make runs. But I want to see runs not in short formats or IPL but in the long format domestically or in county cricket. Then, provided van Zyl and Rillee do the same it becomes a straight shoot out for me. Bavuma can also be considered in this but he has done more than enough to keep his place and the politics of SA means he is unlikely to lose his position.

4) Rabada is a new fantastic find for SA and also our biggest issue, if all players are fit. As has already been mentioned if SA play 4 bowlers (like they generally want to do). Then Morkel brings variety to the attack when Steyn and Philander are in the team. Rabada is very much a swing bowler in the same mould as Steyn. Philander is consistent and brings in some much needed batting in the lower order. Considering they would also like to give Rabada a few more years of experience I can see him being the 4th seamer for another 1 or 2 years.

5) Ideally, the team would like a genuine all-rounder but no player imo has stood out above the rest in SA, particularly in test match cricket. Chris Morris performed well but for me he is not good enough of one thing or the other to be picked. And who of the above options would you drop him for? Most likely Morkel but what are you gaining/losing really? Savage/Phehlukwayo are the most promising young all-rounders but I don`t think they will be ready for another 2 years.

For me the team most likely to be chosen: Elgar, Cook, Amla, AB, Bavuma, Faf/van Zyl, QDK, Philander, Piedt, Steyn, Morkel. (Faf/van Zyl and Rabada first choice backup)

The Team I would like to see picked is: Elgar, Cook, Amla, AB, Bavuma, QDK, Philander, Rabada, Piedt, Steyn, Morkel.(van Zyl and Morris as backup).

This second team has a longish tail, but I think both Rabada and Piedt are good enough to add some handy runs. I think the batting is dependent on Amla to hold things solid at the top. The bowling I think would give all international batting orders series issues, it would be pretty relentless attack. I think this team picks our current most talented players without forcing the all-rounder issue, and you must trust your top 6 to make the runs rather than cover them with a 7th batsmen.

That's my 2cents(sense!) worth....