Player revolt in sa over quota system ??

[indiaholic]

Cricket being broadcast over Doordarshan definitely helped in increasing it's popularity in India.

 

[Oduodu]

No doubt. The longer people are exposed to something in their formative years then it will stick with them for life. That's where my love for the game got formed: watching the rebel west indian tours and castle lager odi cricket on a friday night.

My father's grandfather used to do a very humble work. He walked along the railway line picking up rubbish people threw out of the train. If he picked up a silver spoon he just left it the way it was out of fear of being called a thief. That was roundabout 1910 - 1920. Then when the national party came to power in 1948 my grandfather said that this thing of giving the blacks all the dirty work to do will come back to haunt us and bite us in the ass. And 45 years later that's exactly what happened. I can't blame politicians and the vast majority of our population for the way they feel about cricket.

What's so sad about all of this that we lost so many fine black colored white players to international cricket.

I guess it will never stop and cricket will forever in sa be the scapegoat for the wrongs of apartheid.

 

[Stapel]

CSA made the decision to push the new quota requirements in overdrive when we were the no1 test cricket team in the world, ALSO for administrators to play some politics, absolutely no thoughts of long term effects.

There is absolutely no doubt that the strength of our domestic cricket has gone to the dumps, even amateur cricket has been affected even worse by the quota requirements (7/11 players of colour required).

No one can deny that players of colour need a chance to prove themselves, but the way it is being done is doing more damage than harm and only the administrators get to look good.

Back on topic, the report was exclusive to an Afrikaans newspaper as far as i can tell, so there needs to be more sources to back it up, but where there is smoke there is fire. Firdosa Moonda is not likely to comment on it.

Kwota-rebellie | Netwerk24

Hmmm, only anonymous player quotes. That's not enough, I guess.

Though a maximum of 4 white players in amateur competitions seems absurd to me. Does that include all amateur competitions? Like village cricket?

(pop it into google translate)

Nah, No need to .

 

[Daemon]

Love how ***** made it a point to repeatedly mention that the intention behind quotas is not wrong but the method definitely is, but all he got were replies saying "no quotas suck"

 

[TheJediBrah]

Love how ***** made it a point to repeatedly mention that the intention behind quotas is not wrong but the method definitely is, but all he got were replies saying "no quotas suck"

funny because I saw it as people repeatedly making the point that "quotas suck" regardless of any failed intention and all they got were ***** replies saying "yeah but the intention is not wrong"

edit: and it's not as if people were ignoring *****'s silly hypotheticals, they were directly responded to several times, despite being largely irrelevant to the original conversation.

I mean it's not as if anyone anywhere ever is going to say that the intention behind quotas is wrong lol

 

[Prince EWS]

Love how ***** made it a point to repeatedly mention that the intention behind quotas is not wrong but the method definitely is, but all he got were replies saying "no quotas suck"

He didn't really suggest the method was wrong though; just that he didn't think it'd be effective. I think the response to his post from people who do think there's something actually wrong with the idea in general were entirely appropriate.

 

[cnerd123]

You got both types of replies. Jedi replied to me fairly after initially missing the point. He thinks Quotas are bad even if they are the most effective method. I disagree. It's all cool.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You got both types of replies. Jedi replied to me fairly after initially missing the point. He thinks Quotas are bad even if they are the most effective method. I disagree. It's all cool.

I still think its a silly hypothetical btw

 

[social]

A few years ago, I watched a documentary on cricket in townships in SA and IIRC, Robin Jackman was one of those interviewed

He had done a lot of coaching work in non-white communities and according to him, the biggest problem with quotas was that the vast majority of non-whites preferred football to cricket and no amount of money/opportunity was going to change that so proportional representation would never happen on merit

Fast forward a few years and quotas in SA cricket have made naff all difference other than to piss some people off

In rugby, it is alleged that unwritten quotas have weakened the Springboks

Meanwhile in SA football, where no quota system exists, there is not a single white member of the national team

Bottom line is that administration/government in SA is clueless (and that extends waaaaaay beyond sport)

 

[Stefan9]

A few years ago, I watched a documentary on cricket in townships in SA and IIRC, Robin Jackman was one of those interviewed

He had done a lot of coaching work in non-white communities and according to him, the biggest problem with quotas was that the vast majority of non-whites preferred football to cricket and no amount of money/opportunity was going to change that so proportional representation would never happen on merit

Fast forward a few years and quotas in SA cricket have made naff all difference other than to piss some people off

In rugby, it is alleged that unwritten quotas have weakened the Springboks

Meanwhile in SA football, where no quota system exists, there is not a single white member of the national team

Bottom line is that administration/government in SA is clueless (and that extends waaaaaay beyond sport)

Well in football fifa has rules for any goverment interference which would include things like quotas. They would face exclusion if they tried it.

For all fifa's other issues that is one thing they are much stronger on then the ICC or IRB.

 

[cnerd123]

I still think its a silly hypothetical btw

The TLDR version is that even if CSA invests heavily in grassroots cricket for blacks/minorities and develops the sport in their communities, there would be a lot of black/minority kids giving up the sport after junior levels because all the main clubs/franchises are white-dominated.

For more details, read on:

Assuming the CSA invests heavily in grassroot level cricket in black/minority communities in SA, and gets them engaged in cricket and gets their schools producing good players, there is likely to be a lot of talented dropping out of cricket after school/youth level.

This will partly be because many of the black/minority players who get selected by professional clubs and franchises will feel alienated within dressing rooms that are dominated by white English/Africaans speaking players, coaches and staff. There will be an element of 'we don't belong here', due to cultural differences, communication issues, and possibly even differences in terms of the style of cricket they want to play. But since the existing team hierarchy is white dominated, and the existing team culture and ethos has been set, it will be up to the black/minority cricketers to find ways to adapt and fit in. This struggle could affect their on-field performances, as well as the club's own belief in their ability.

Likewise, it is very likely that white players will get chosen over their equally talented black/minority counterparts, based on the (correct) reasoning that they would blend in better with the existing team culture than the black/minority players would. Not only because they speak the same languages and have similar cultural backgrounds, but because they are likely to be coming through the same school systems and youth infrastructures that the squad's existing players/coaches/managements have.

It is only the extremely talented black cricketers who make it through - those who are equally as good as their white counterparts will struggle and probably be discarded.

This is basically a vicious cycle - because black/minority players find it harder to break in, professional cricket remains white dominated, and thus they continue to find it hard to break in. This struggle for talented black/minority youngsters to make the step up to professional cricket means that they will continue to make up a relatively small % of professional cricket in South Africa.

At this stage, the black/minority communities that have been re-engaged with cricket will then begin to once again feel disenfranchised with cricket, seeing the difficulties their players are having with becoming professional cricketers. There will be accusations made of bias in team selections, racism, and the black/minority communities will begin to stray away from the game again.

At this point, the ideal solution would seem to either be:

1) Incentive professional sides to select more black/minority players. This way, when picking between two equally talented cricketers, the black/minority one has something going in his favour (CSA incentives) in order to counter what the white cricket has in is (fitting the existing team culture better). This is basically the Quota system. With a greater presence of black cricketers in professional cricket, the talented youngsters benefiting from grassroots improvements will be encouraged to make the step up, and will find it significantly easier to do so.

2) Have new franchises/professional sides set up in black/minority communities in order to represent their players and cricketing culture. This will essentially create a divide between 'white' clubs and 'black' clubs, but makes sure everyone is engaged.


So yea. This is my hypothetical scenario within which quotas could actually be effective.

 

[Stefan9]

Hmmm, only anonymous player quotes. That's not enough, I guess.

Though a maximum of 4 white players in amateur competitions seems absurd to me. Does that include all amateur competitions? Like village cricket?



Nah, No need to .

Presume they are referring to the amateur league, the one just below franchise level that for some reason has first class status.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

even if CSA invests heavily in grassroots cricket for blacks/minorities and develops the sport in their communities, there would be a lot of black/minority kids giving up the sport after junior levels because all the main clubs/franchises are white-dominated.

Seriously? A talented black SA cricketer looks at the next step in his rep career and decides to give it up because he doesn't want to be around all these white poeple?

 

[Gnske]

So the options would be

1) Have CSA whispering in the ears of franchise selectors "If you pick the minority bloke we might just leave a bowling and strength/conditioning coach at your door with a bag of goodies and $$$"

2) Essentially create segregation with the aim of more is better and probably in the process lower the standards of competition (Standard of competition in SA domestics as is are already providing significant problems in the step up from domestic to international cricket)

Honestly, all for more involvement. But quotas reek at impatience at something that won't and hasn't healed in just a generation.

 

[harsh.ag]

The TLDR version is that even if CSA invests heavily in grassroots cricket for blacks/minorities and develops the sport in their communities, there would be a lot of black/minority kids giving up the sport after junior levels because all the main clubs/franchises are white-dominated.

For more details, read on:

Assuming the CSA invests heavily in grassroot level cricket in black/minority communities in SA, and gets them engaged in cricket and gets their schools producing good players, there is likely to be a lot of talented dropping out of cricket after school/youth level.

This will partly be because many of the black/minority players who get selected by professional clubs and franchises will feel alienated within dressing rooms that are dominated by white English/Africaans speaking players, coaches and staff. There will be an element of 'we don't belong here', due to cultural differences, communication issues, and possibly even differences in terms of the style of cricket they want to play. But since the existing team hierarchy is white dominated, and the existing team culture and ethos has been set, it will be up to the black/minority cricketers to find ways to adapt and fit in. This struggle could affect their on-field performances, as well as the club's own belief in their ability.

Likewise, it is very likely that white players will get chosen over their equally talented black/minority counterparts, based on the (correct) reasoning that they would blend in better with the existing team culture than the black/minority players would. Not only because they speak the same languages and have similar cultural backgrounds, but because they are likely to be coming through the same school systems and youth infrastructures that the squad's existing players/coaches/managements have.

It is only the extremely talented black cricketers who make it through - those who are equally as good as their white counterparts will struggle and probably be discarded.

This is basically a vicious cycle - because black/minority players find it harder to break in, professional cricket remains white dominated, and thus they continue to find it hard to break in. This struggle for talented black/minority youngsters to make the step up to professional cricket means that they will continue to make up a relatively small % of professional cricket in South Africa.

At this stage, the black/minority communities that have been re-engaged with cricket will then begin to once again feel disenfranchised with cricket, seeing the difficulties their players are having with becoming professional cricketers. There will be accusations made of bias in team selections, racism, and the black/minority communities will begin to stray away from the game again.

At this point, the ideal solution would seem to either be:

1) Incentive professional sides to select more black/minority players. This way, when picking between two equally talented cricketers, the black/minority one has something going in his favour (CSA incentives) in order to counter what the white cricket has in is (fitting the existing team culture better). This is basically the Quota system. With a greater presence of black cricketers in professional cricket, the talented youngsters benefiting from grassroots improvements will be encouraged to make the step up, and will find it significantly easier to do so.

2) Have new franchises/professional sides set up in black/minority communities in order to represent their players and cricketing culture. This will essentially create a divide between 'white' clubs and 'black' clubs, but makes sure everyone is engaged.


So yea. This is my hypothetical scenario within which quotas could actually be effective.

Don't think this hypothetical is true in SA though. Selectors are always on the lookout for a and they are very race/culture conscious nowadays.

If it was true, I would prefer it if a black/minority player just sued the CSA in civil court like it has been done in other professions. Preferable as a way to conflict it out than quotas. Also what's revealed in the trial gives everyone a frame of reference as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

 

[cnerd123]

What do you sue for? There isn't any active discrimination. If they are good enough, they get picked. But a team culture is something you cannot legally enforce, and if white players make up the team culture, no matter how accommodating they try to be, the minorities will continue to be the minorities. They will be forced to assimilate. And if they can't, their performance will struggle, and there would be legit, fair reasons to prefer a player who fits the team culture better.

 

[cnerd123]

Seriously? A talented black SA cricketer looks at the next step in his rep career and decides to give it up because he doesn't want to be around all these white poeple?

Nice job at reducing a complex argument to an absurd one-line phrase which bears no resemblance to the actual argument.

 

[harsh.ag]

What do you sue for? There isn't any active discrimination. If they are good enough, they get picked. But a team culture is something you cannot legally enforce, and if white players make up the team culture, no matter how accommodating they try to be, the minorities will continue to be the minorities. They will be forced to assimilate. And if they can't, their performance will struggle, and there would be legit, fair reasons to prefer a player who fits the team culture better.

But that's true for every profession. And I don't see you arguing that quotas might be a good idea in banking.

 

[cnerd123]

But that's true for every profession. And I don't see you arguing that quotas might be a good idea in banking.

Spot the difference between a private industry and representing the country.

The reason you want to get more black players involved is to engage the whole country with the sport, and not just the whites. Partly to access more talent, partly to get more fans, and partly so that the National side can more accurately reflect the demographics of the country.I don't think Banking has those same priorities.

 

[Dan]

I think you're making a lot of assumptions in this example, *****, to the point that the argument you're attempting to make is wholly unworkable.

Agree on the more general point that effectiveness/pragmatism > philosophical purity in this type of discussion, though.