Is Jacques Kallis Ken Barrington of modern age?

[OverratedSanity]

Kallis' most memorable performances in Australia to me were his two innings in the du Plessis match at Adelaide. Made two very important little contributions with a damaged hamstring.

 

[Marius]

I sort of get the argument about our 90's batting line-up. Wessel's, Hudson, P.Kirsten, McMillan probably would have played a bit of test cricket in the 80's but the changes were probably G.Kirsten in for Wessel's & Gibbs in for Hudson, Kallis in for P.Kirsten and then Cullinan , Cronje, Rhodes, McMillan.

I think that was a pretty decent batting line-up & deservedly 2nd best in the world behind Australia almost through out the 90's. I agree with the assessment of Gibbs (42 ave) & Cullinan (44 ave) in that when they were on song they were the players to watch. Absolute poetry in motion. They were teenage prodigies after all. But had soft under-bellies at times if you want to put it that way.

The funny thing is, Cronje and Rhodes were probably more steely than people realised and often stood up v England/Australia but their records aren't up there with G.Kirsten, Gibbs, Kallis, Cullinan, McMillan etc they often scored the tough runs and they did so quite quickly but were never as talented as the rest.

But with Gibbs/Hudson blowing so hot and cold and Kallis thinking about Cullinan's deficiencies against that great Australian side and while Cronje and Rhodes were good players I think he probably had doubts at the back of his behind because how often did G.Kirsten or Kallis save the day ?

It is tough to judge that batting line up because it was still pretty good and the shackles weren't totally on them but think Bob Woolmer wanted the others to bat around G.Kirsten/Kallis so the risk taking wasn't there for both of them in that period.

So Kallis was set in his ways. He was a young player with a lot of responsibility and it became what he knew. That other batsmen must bat around him.

Kallis played some great backs to wall knocks and the great first test century at the MCG comes to mind. He had the ability to score quick all around the ground. Ask the Australians he played as a teenager when a WP team toured there early 90s

AB and Amla are quality players and will go down as greats but it is that same old argument of did they have to face McGrath, Warne, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh, Kumble, Murali like the above batting line-up did etc

I agree with all Marius said there except the bit about SA's batting being mediocre. They were always good. They were phenomenal after Smith, Amla and AB came in but they were never anything less than very good. Kirsten was one of the very best openers of the era, Cullman was a top player (Warne troubles notwithstanding), and their batting lineup had extraordinary depth with guys like Klusener , McMillan, Pollock etc. down the order. Neither was there any shortage of dashers in SA's batting in the era. Gibbs, Rhodes, Klusener, even Cronje to an extent were very attacking batsmen.

I take your points guys.

One difference though is while guys like Amla and De Villiers and guys like Rhodes and Cronje, for example, is that Cronje and Rhodes never ground the opponents into the ground. Rhodes and Cronje could bat long periods and get the scoreboard ticking along, but they would never kick onto those big scores. Cronje's highest score was 135 (and that was his first Test century) and Rhodes's highest is only 117. Amla has a 300 and a 250, and AB has two double hundreds.

And although we had batting depth in the '90s, we needed it, because we were always 90/4 or 120/5 or something.

 

[Marius]

Kallis' most memorable performances in Australia to me were his two innings in the du Plessis match at Adelaide. Made two very important little contributions with a damaged hamstring.

Yeah, say what you like about Kallis, but you can't deny he was a tough bugger.

Also made two hundreds in a game at Newlands v India with a crocked hammstring.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Yeah, say what you like about Kallis, but you can't deny he was a tough bugger.

Also made two hundreds in a game at Newlands v India with a crocked hammstring.

Exactly. This should be a fitting reply to those who question his sincerity for the cause of the team

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, say what you like about Kallis, but you can't deny he was a tough bugger.

Also made two hundreds in a game at Newlands v India with a crocked hammstring.

Ahh the Kallisball game. Never forget.

 

[Ikki]

I honestly don't know how or why someone can make this kind of an argument. How can us as the spectators watching on TV or at the ground tell this? I would think the only people who would probably be aware of this would be the players in the dressing room. I think it's quite unfair to question someone's intentions because for us, there is no objective way of deciphering this.

Because if you're watching the game and you know the sport generally well you can tell when a pivotal time is to take a wicket or make a run. It might not be objectively verifiable that a bowler is on his game and may need a batsman to take him on or vice-versa; but it's apparent to those who are watching it. Basically, there is such a thing as momentum in cricket and sport in general.

 

[Jono]

There was a short time after the Newlands game where Kallis went epic vs. India that the forum suddenly realised how ****ing gun Kallis was and people started ranking him ahead of Ponting who was sucking balls at the time.

Now Punter would comfortably win a poll on here.

Always interesting when you've been here long enough you see the ebbs and flows of how CWers rate cricketers during their career and then after retirement.

 

[honestbharani]

Wow a simple question on why Kallis does not make it to more CW All Time XI turns into a full on analysis on his career and stats. This is why I CW. You will never get these conversations with dumb casual fans on FB.





Cronje died in 2002, played his last game in 2000.

Obviously.. I didn't say THAT incident happened in 2003. I just said the commentary incident with Boycott happened in 2003...

 

[Furball]

I think there's a few points. His first series in Australia 97/98 he did fairly poorly averaging 38 with the bat. However next time 01/02 he averaged 49 in 6 innings. For me this was a series I thought we were going to run through them easily. Kallis' "slow" batting was a thorn in the side. He never made a century that series but his fortitude at the crease was impressive to me. Again in 05/06 his three matches including the "World XI" test he averaged 69.
I know he's not everyone's favourite player but over his career he averaged nearly 50 in Australia including some good series against top bowling.

Quoting a series average is meaningless in isolation. An average of 49 in a series isn't necessarily an indication of a good series.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Quoting a series average is meaningless in isolation. An average of 49 in a series isn't necessarily an indication of a good series.

True just an avrage is pointless without context. But Kallis in that series was a bit of a rock at number 4, Dippenaar was making no runs at 3, Kallis prevented a middle order collapse with some very solid batting. I really started to enjoy watching him bat in that 01/02 series, he made 245 runs in three tests.
Is it true too that until 2008/09, SA had never won a series in Australia?

 

[akilana]

Kallis was great but I do think that those innings where he seemed in his own bubble and ignored the match situation count against him for many fans. I guess it is a minor thing though as many sides would love a guy scoring that amount of runs and ability to bowl like he did and also remain fit for as long as he did.

A freak.

Cook, Trott, Dravid etc all batted/bat in their own bubble but they are selfless players who played according to the match situation

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ahh the Kallisball game. Never forget.

I call it the DhoniWAC game tbh

 

[akilana]

I can see why there is no real Jacques Kallis love. He did come across as selfish sometimes, and he certainly had the talent to do what AB de Villiers does.

But I think there are some complex factors behind this. When Kallis started playing for SA he played for a fairly mediocre batting side - there was no De Villiers, Amla etc. You had a couple of strokemakers, like Cullinan and Gibbs, but neither of them averaged above 50. Both were good players but not on the level of De Villiers or Amla for example. This probably influenced the way Kallis played Tests. He was a bit of a dasher when he was younger - I remember him square driving someone for six playing for Western Province in 1996 or so. But being in a team which often suffered from the 90/5 syndrome it was important he kept his wicket intact.

Also, I think his upbringing played a part. The SA team in the 1990s was, for the most part, fairly dour. I really think having been brought up in apartheid SA played some part in that - the society we grow up in influences us more than we think. Now guys who were ten years younger than Kallis started coming into the team, and grew up in a much freer society, so you get your Amlas, De Villiers, De Kocks etc.

Kallis has also played some great knocks. This innings against that great England side in Durban in 2003. Kallis was the only guy who stood firm, guiding SA to 332 after being 118-6. Also two hundreds in two innings versus Pakistan in Karachi. There was also this century versus India when only one other person made a fifty in the innings.

I get why people don't feel the same about Kallis as about players with similar (or even worse records) but without Kallis, SA certainly wouldn't have become the team they did. He is a legend of the game, and I'm glad SA was lucky enough to have him.

You have to go through some of the English tour thread.. People were having hard on for Trott, who was poor man's Kallis and defended his slow approach .. I think if Kallis played for a team with much bigger fanfare, country men would never fail to hype him up.

 

[Marius]

Is it true too that until 2008/09, SA had never won a series in Australia?

Yeah, first time we won was then, drew a couple of series before that, but that was the first win.

 

[Black_Warrior]

You have to go through some of the English tour thread.. People were having hard on for Trott, who was poor man's Kallis and defended his slow approach .. I think if Kallis played for a team with much bigger fanfare, country men would never fail to hype him up.

Yeah that's another good point. CW is the ultimate manifestation of Big 3..with most of the fans from the 3 greatest cricketing nations of all time.. If we had more South African fans, blokes like Kallis and Donald (another criminally underrated player on CW) would have been rated much higher.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There was a short time after the Newlands game where Kallis went epic vs. India that the forum suddenly realised how ****ing gun Kallis was and people started ranking him ahead of Ponting who was sucking balls at the time.

Now Punter would comfortably win a poll on here.

Always interesting when you've been here long enough you see the ebbs and flows of how CWers rate cricketers during their career and then after retirement.

That's what I meant by him going from massively underrated to overrated. People just felt they had to atone for the past when they didn't rate Kallis highly enough at all, and ended up over compensating instead. It happens a lot for many players imo.

That said, he's still not rated highly enough as a cricketer. His bowling and slip fielding add immense value. Part of only a handful of cricketers who can do so many things so well.

 

[SeamUp]

Kallis' most memorable performances in Australia to me were his two innings in the du Plessis match at Adelaide. Made two very important little contributions with a damaged hamstring.

That Adelaide test and the India twin century at CT was a joke at the end of his career.

But also what stood out v Aus was..

His first test century was stand up and take notice stuff though wasn't it.

But that evening at the WACA where we struggling chasing that big score and Kallis decided to let loose was probably the momentum the innings needed to give us the confidence. That hook for 6 with the Freemantle doc off Siddle I think, was sweet as.

Stats are stats & I look deeper than them too but numbers never lie. Try produce excellence over nearly 2 decades in the best format of the game in all 3 facets like he did in all conditions. He certainly isn't human for what he did and for how long he did it. Not many were as adaptable as him as a cricketer.

Jacques Kallis stats analysis - A spotless Test record | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Marius]

That Adelaide test and the India twin century at CT was a joke at the end of his career.

But also what stood out v Aus was..

His first test century was stand up and take notice stuff though wasn't it.

But that evening at the WACA where we struggling chasing that big score and Kallis decided to let loose was probably the momentum the innings needed to give us the confidence. That hook for 6 with the Freemantle doc off Siddle I think, was sweet as.

Stats are stats & I look deeper than them too but numbers never lie. Try produce excellence over nearly 2 decades in the best format of the game in all 3 facets like he did in all conditions. He certainly isn't human for what he did and for how long he did it. Not many were as adaptable as him as a cricketer.

Jacques Kallis stats analysis - A spotless Test record | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

Yeah, definitely.

I was legit more upset when I heard Kallis was retiring than when I heard Mandela had died.

 

[Tec15]

There is a persistent myth that Kallis failed against the Australia of Mcgrath and Warne. He actually averaged 53.69 in 8 matches in Australia where both those bowlers played. Lara, just to give an example averaged much less and even he was far less consistent, with a few big hundreds surround by more numerous failures. Dravid's tailender average is not even worth mentioning. The idea that he was a lesser batsman than say, a flat track home bully like Clarke is laughable.

Also people (usually from the Big Three countries) love to resort to cliches about him failing to "seize a game", "to accelerate when needed", "playing for his average, not his team" blah blah blah while creaming themselves over mediocre plodders from their own teams like Trott, Bell, Katich, etc. Half remembered commentary of Boycott (Projecting himself heavily) about Kallis is taken as gospel regarding how Kallis actually batted.

 

[marc71178]

You have to go through some of the English tour thread.. People were having hard on for Trott, who was poor man's Kallis and defended his slow approach .. I think if Kallis played for a team with much bigger fanfare, country men would never fail to hype him up.

Oh yes, because SA fans never hype any of their players up.