Did Imran Khan use to do intense ball tempering frequently?

[smash84]

Thanks for posting that harsh

 

[G.I.Joe]

You would have to be really stupid to believe in the cherry picking myth being woven here. Imran has a fairly low percentage of tail en wickets. He was Pakistan s premier strike bowler till 1988. In his last 3 years he played pretty much as a batsman and rarely bowled. Some nitwits think that is cherry picking overs to get cheap wickets. They dont know **** about imran's career.

And agent your arguments are quite silly. Try to avoid posting in this thread.

Please smack yourself on the face. Are you not capable of comprehension? Do you not understand what a conditional argument is?

 

[Spark]

I will smack the poster on the head who chooses to ignore this part in his response

well, you tried

 

[Prince EWS]

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I don't know if Imran cherry picked his overs, but if he did (I will smack the poster on the head who chooses to ignore this part in his response) how does that not count against him? It's not the same as allowing your best bowler to bowl downwind or pick an end based off scuff marks on the pitch. It would be actively abdicating from an unfavourable match situation. No place for that sort of behaviour in team sport.

I guess when you put it that way, then yes it wouldn't be the right behaviour within a team sport and would count against him.

 

[subshakerz]

imran's succcess from early 80s-88 can be easily explained and it wasnt all just pure skill, though a considrable part of his success was that he was fast, he was a damn smart bowler and had quite a few tools in his armory, while being at his physical peak for the early 80s.
But two major components of his success was a) ball tampering and b) cherry picking the best overs. I saw imran live and he cherry-picked the prime bowling options in his latter years. He would only ever bowl the opening overs and to the strict tailenders from mid/late 80s onwards. If two batsmen were set, he rarely bowled and did only 2-3 overs stints to give releif to the other main bowlers.
If every fast bowler bowled 7 overs at the start of an innings, 2-3 overs in the period between 20 and 50 overs, then bowled to tailenders or waited for the new ball, their figures would be better.

So, why didnt any umpire catch Imran ball-tampering on all those tours to England, Australia and West Indies when he achieved great success? Were they blind? Or perhaps Imran didnt do anything worse than the local bowlers did?

On cherry-picking the overs, there is nothing wrong in your best bowler bowling the opening overs and dismissing the tail enders. That is exactly what he is there for. What you suggest is that he dodged bowling during the middle overs to settled batsmen, care to supply some evidence of that? Has any of his peers or teammates ever hinted at that accusation in all their years of playing? Or is this your own theory?

And you ignore the most obvious point: ball tampering was rampant throughout cricket at that time in the 80s. It was an established part of the game. Which is why so many former great bowlers are now calling for it to be legalized. Its hypocrisy to single out and discredit Imran for it.

 

[subshakerz]

The basic point is that ball tampering was a common feature of cricket in Imran's time. Bowlers would pick at the seam and scuff the ball and the game would go on. What was unusual was reverse swing technique which Imran had mastered, and coupled with his pace, skill and slinging action, he reaped great success.

 

[Jono]

I don't know if Imran cherry picked his overs, but if he did (I will smack the poster on the head who chooses to ignore this part in his response) how does that not count against him? It's not the same as allowing your best bowler to bowl downwind or pick an end based off scuff marks on the pitch. It would be actively abdicating from an unfavourable match situation. No place for that sort of behaviour in team sport.

This kind of qualification almost never works on a message board. You only have yourself to blame GI Joe.

 

[Muloghonto]

So, why didnt any umpire catch Imran ball-tampering on all those tours to England, Australia and West Indies when he achieved great success? Were they blind? Or perhaps Imran didnt do anything worse than the local bowlers did?

On cherry-picking the overs, there is nothing wrong in your best bowler bowling the opening overs and dismissing the tail enders. That is exactly what he is there for. What you suggest is that he dodged bowling during the middle overs to settled batsmen, care to supply some evidence of that? Has any of his peers or teammates ever hinted at that accusation in all their years of playing? Or is this your own theory?

And you ignore the most obvious point: ball tampering was rampant throughout cricket at that time in the 80s. It was an established part of the game. Which is why so many former great bowlers are now calling for it to be legalized. Its hypocrisy to single out and discredit Imran for it.

Part of the reason is, umpires in the 80s had the unspoken rule of not checking the ball unless the batting team complained, which they never did because it was seen cowardly/unsportsmanlike to bring the game into disrepute.
Another part is, Imran did tamper a lot more blatantly in Pakistan than overseas because the umpires were a lot more favourable to the Pakistanis in Pakistan.
Ball tampering existed in the 80s but its biggest proponent was Imran Khan. Period.

On cherry picking the best bowling times, you seriously think there is nothing wrong with it ? strike bowler or not, you are one of the 4 bowlers available to the side, which means if you are not rotating through the bowling duties every 12-14 overs, you are placing an undue burden on the other three, which is unprofessional, unethical and counter productive. It is also boosting your own record at the expense of other bowlers, which Imran did, particularly at the expense of Akram
I don't need any players to corroborrate this, since its pretty obvious when you've watched those test matches live/followed it live and one bowler bowls 4 overs in a 60 over period...

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Nothing wrong with cherry picking in Imrans case.

1. His place im the side was justified by his batting and captaincy alone.

2. His body was failing. Meaning he was only good for a few overs a game.

3. He was still a lethal bowler, hence was the best bowler to take the new ball, or to quickly rip through the tail.

 

[kyear2]

I don't know if Imran cherry picked his overs, but if he did (I will smack the poster on the head who chooses to ignore this part in his response) how does that not count against him? It's not the same as allowing your best bowler to bowl downwind or pick an end based off scuff marks on the pitch. It would be actively abdicating from an unfavourable match situation. No place for that sort of behaviour in team sport.

I have read some this similar with regard to his batting as well, will look for the link when I get home. One again no idea if it was true or not but it was said that he would promote himself up the order vs weaker app on ends but lower against the tougher ones. Again no idea if it's true but even if it is don't have a problem with that one. If the bowling cherry picking is true it would explain the average being maintained but lower wpm later in his career and would be an example of putting your needs ahead of the team but again that's all internal and his decision as captain. I wouldn't like it as a supporter but it is what it is. The open ball tampering and teaching others to do while captain of the team is poor form no matter how you spin it.
Imran was no doubt a great player, no disputing that but that the ball tampering and especially the teaching of it has to affect his legacy, if you believe it affects his stats or not.

 

[fredfertang]

Part of the reason is, umpires in the 80s had the unspoken rule of not checking the ball unless the batting team complained, which they never did because it was seen cowardly/unsportsmanlike to bring the game into disrepute.
Another part is, Imran did tamper a lot more blatantly in Pakistan than overseas because the umpires were a lot more favourable to the Pakistanis in Pakistan.
Ball tampering existed in the 80s but its biggest proponent was Imran Khan. Period.

On cherry picking the best bowling times, you seriously think there is nothing wrong with it ? strike bowler or not, you are one of the 4 bowlers available to the side, which means if you are not rotating through the bowling duties every 12-14 overs, you are placing an undue burden on the other three, which is unprofessional, unethical and counter productive. It is also boosting your own record at the expense of other bowlers, which Imran did, particularly at the expense of Akram
I don't need any players to corroborrate this, since its pretty obvious when you've watched those test matches live/followed it live and one bowler bowls 4 overs in a 60 over period...

Of course you don't, after all this is an internet forum and not a court of law, but nobody is going to take your opinion seriously if you have no supporting evidence - it's not as if they didn't all write autobiographies and some, like Hadlee, Lillee, Imran and Viv have had at least three goes at that

 

[social]

The basic point is that ball tampering was a common feature of cricket in Imran's time. Bowlers would pick at the seam and scuff the ball and the game would go on. What was unusual was reverse swing technique which Imran had mastered, and coupled with his pace, skill and slinging action, he reaped great success.

People were certainly more "relaxed" about it e.g. it was not uncommon for India to open the bowling with at least one spinner and to rough up the brand new ball by rubbing it in the bowlers footmarks right under the nose of the umpires and opposing batsmen - literally no-one gave a **** about it but it would definitely be illegal today

I practiced with Imran quite a bit when he played cricket in Oz for NSW and can guarantee that he could reverse swing the ball miles without the need to blatantly cheat

That's not to say that the way he treated the ball would be acceptable today

Simply that he didn't need a bottle-top etc to do it

 

[the big bambino]

I don't need any players to corroborrate this...

You haven't before and probably never will. Yet I suspect some wont share the confidence you have in your own opinion until you do.

 

[smash84]

I practiced with Imran quite a bit when he played cricket in Oz for NSW

:

 

[subshakerz]

Part of the reason is, umpires in the 80s had the unspoken rule of not checking the ball unless the batting team complained, which they never did because it was seen cowardly/unsportsmanlike to bring the game into disrepute.
Another part is, Imran did tamper a lot more blatantly in Pakistan than overseas because the umpires were a lot more favourable to the Pakistanis in Pakistan.

So Imran got all those wickets away from home and the batsmen never complained. What does that tell you? And bowling overseas was no barrier to his success as some have suggested that his success was entirely based on tampering on home pitches, which is clearly not true.

Ball tampering existed in the 80s but its biggest proponent was Imran Khan. Period.

Almost all pacers indulged in ball tampering and you have no evidence that Imran was any more blatant at it than others. What set Imran apart was reverse swing which nobody was prepared for.

On cherry picking the best bowling times, you seriously think there is nothing wrong with it ? strike bowler or not, you are one of the 4 bowlers available to the side, which means if you are not rotating through the bowling duties every 12-14 overs, you are placing an undue burden on the other three, which is unprofessional, unethical and counter productive. It is also boosting your own record at the expense of other bowlers, which Imran did, particularly at the expense of Akram
I don't need any players to corroborrate this, since its pretty obvious when you've watched those test matches live/followed it live and one bowler bowls 4 overs in a 60 over period...

I didnt say cherry picking is ok, I just said you dont have evidence for it. No player of his time ever accused him of that, or any bowler under his captaincy. Yet somehow you know better. And Imran is the last, last player you can accuse of playing for his stats or records.

The only time he did bowl less was after 88 when it was clear his bowling abilities were on the wane, his batting came to the fore and Waqar came into the side hence he didnt need to do much grunt work.

 

[rtramdas]

Based on the testimonies of all the persons inclusive of in those statements i put forward in my main topic, i firmly believe that his case was not at all that silly as those involved in the routine things which we see in front of our eyes during live telecasts of cricket matches. based on that i can no more take the credentials of such a player as such.any way it is my personnel opinion only.

 

[harsh.ag]

Based on the testimonies of all the persons inclusive of in those statements i put forward in my main topic, i firmly believe that his case was not at all that silly as those involved in the routine things which we see in front of our eyes during live telecasts of cricket matches. based on that i can no more take the credentials of such a player as such.any way it is my personnel opinion only.

Ah! Now it makes sense. rt is head of the ATG Players HR Department.

 

[Muloghonto]

Nothing wrong with cherry picking in Imrans case.

1. His place im the side was justified by his batting and captaincy alone.

having seen Imran play, i disagree. he was never a top six batsman.

2. His body was failing. Meaning he was only good for a few overs a game.

3. He was still a lethal bowler, hence was the best bowler to take the new ball, or to quickly rip through the tail.

No, Akram, Waqar, etc. were better suited to take the new ball in the end. And before Waqar, yes, Imran was the 2nd best bowler to take the new ball (after Akram) but that does not mean he gets to bowl 7-8 overs on the trot with the new ball and not bowl a single over for anothe 30+ overs. If you are good to bowl 7-8 overs on the trot, fitness is not an issue.
The issue was, he was the captain and he reserved the best bowling opportunities for himself. Thats one reason why bowling captains are rare: not only are they not fit enough compared to batsmen to play as much games, they have an inherent bias to bowl themselves over making the most efficient use of bowler rotation and Imran was the perfect example of that.
Had he not been the captain, he certainly would not have gotten scot free in the middle overs, where every single captain uses his best bowler as well in the middle overs.

 

[Muloghonto]

Of course you don't, after all this is an internet forum and not a court of law, but nobody is going to take your opinion seriously if you have no supporting evidence - it's not as if they didn't all write autobiographies and some, like Hadlee, Lillee, Imran and Viv have had at least three goes at that

I digress. This is not a court of law and if you think that opinions of those who have seen the game firsthand need to be corroborrated, then it speaks of your disrespect for the average poster and the fact that you yourself have no basis of forming first hand opinion, therefore you are unwilling to admit others in the same position.
I don't care about autobiographies, i know what is saw and asking corroborrating evidence is as assinine as asking corroborating evidence to pronounce that deVilliers is a great batsman...