***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[hendrix]

Blocky, I think you're better off just waiting for the chance to say "I told you so" when Wagner becomes a world class strike bowler (unlikely), McCleneghan is both selected and performs well in test cricket (possible) and Guptill is dropped from the ODI team. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of Guptill so I wouldn't mind it, and it might mean that Latham is selected, but I'd be joking to argue with Guptill's ODI record or to say that Wagner has looked a world beater in test cricket.

But leave it a couple of years and you're welcome to have the last laugh.

 

[Prince EWS]

But yes, tell me how the South African domestic competition isn't stronger than ours

I'm not quite sure to accuse you of drowning in your own ignorance, hubris or straw men with comments like these but one thing's for sure, you're drowning in something.

South Africa's proper four day competition, from which they select their Test side from, is indeed far stronger than the Plunket Shield. There's absolutely no comparison; it's very arguably the best domestic competition in the world and several scores above the standard of New Zealand domestic cricket.

Wagner was rarely selected at this level, however. They maintain a three-day competition the level below this which lies somewhere between Second XI and Third XI cricket; it has held First Class status as a matter of tradition more than quality. The franchises use this competition as a feeder system, free to call up any players from their designated feeder sides they see fit. You have to be very careful with South African First Class records as a result - Ruan Pietersen as a classic example took 78 First Class at an average of less than 20 purely as an amateur cricketer; he never played First Class cricket for his local professional side, the Dolphins. This level of cricket, First Class in name alone (in reality an expanded second tier feeder system) is where Wagner played most of his "First Class" cricket in South Africa, and it's in no way stronger than the Plunket Shield. Many quality players have played in it over the years, but as a means of coming up through the ranks as they advanced their careers.

Wagner played 17 First Class matches for amateur cricket side Northerns in which he averaged less than 20 with the ball, far less in fact that he averages for Otago (25) despite only being a kid at the time. He did play two games of professional cricket for the Titans in a far stronger competition than the Plunket Shield for little success (3 wickets @ 40) but that's to be expected.

South Africa does have a much stronger First Class system than New Zealand overall but their competition is far more complicated than New Zealand's; you can't take anything on face value.

 

[BackFootPunch]

He was domestic player of the year two years after arriving here, you're trying to indicate to me that he learnt his bowling here in New Zealand in two seasons, and not the 10-12 he had spent in South Africa in age group and first class cricket? OK. Sure.

No, I'm trying to indicate that when he arrived he was not the bowler he was when he started dominating a couple of years later. Now, whether that is because when he first got here he tried too hard and, as a result, struggled to get the best out of himself or whether it's because (heaven forbid) he actually learned some stuff from those initial couple of seasons and from coaches like Mike Hesson and Vaughn Johnson and then improved is not entirely clear. It's probably both. I'm not trying to say he's **** or that he was **** when he got here. I'm saying that it's just completely untrue to say that Wagner stepped off the plane and started tearing up domestic cricket.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Saying that guptill plays the ball late and under the eyes

 

[Blocky]

Yeah I've been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but this is getting pretty poor now. It's the sheer refusal to accept that he might be wrong about some things (e.g. Boult's outswinger, the average standard of 2nd division SA domestix) that undermines the interesting points he makes in other areas.

Yes, the standard fall back argument of internet people - stop playing the point, start playing the man.

Nothing I've written has been expressed as anything more than an opinion, Boult does not possess a credible outswinger, if he does, where has it been this season? "Oh, he bowled it, it just doesn't work, it started too wide, it wasn't effective" - meanwhile I can point to examples this season and previous seasons where Wagner gets the ball moving both ways in the air with both the new and old ball, funny that.

You want Guptill in the side, that's your opinion, I personally think we have better and more consistent batsmen and I don't believe New Zealand cricket will become credible and move above 8th in the world in either format if we keep selecting guys like Guptill who think two 50+ scores every ten innings is "world class" and if you remove Zimbabwe and Bangladesh from that mix, it's more like two 50+ scores every 15 innings. I've got no issues him being in T20 where all he needs to do is hit hard, but he's not an intelligent cricketer, that's why I don't have any respect for him near the ODI cricket machine.

Funny how any time we've played the South African Academy or South African A side we've been destroyed, regardless if it's our NZ A, NZ or Academy teams. Yes, I fully understand there are two levels of domestic cricket in Australia, but we've got a guy who learnt his craft in South Africa, wasn't good enough to even be on the fringes, and within a couple of seasons was the dominant bowler in NZ. How many runs has Van Wyk scored here versus his time in South Africa?

Their schoolboy cricket, academy cricket and first class cricket is of a much higher standard than ours, that's also the reason they were able to come back into cricket in 1992 and instantly be competitive with any side in the world, it's why we're only ever competitive when we either have a rare patch with four to six good players or two world class players. But lets forget all of those facts and the fact that South Africa is the #1 side in the world, despite having a tonne of players leave their scene to go and dominate county cricket in England and think that their domestic cricket structure can't possibly compare to New Zealand and our ability to generate players like Guptill. Because that's entirely logical.

 

[Blocky]

So this is what it's like to see radio callers post on forums.

I've been on these forums longer than you have, but yes, lets pretend like you're an old world pro.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes, the standard fall back argument of internet people - stop playing the point, start playing the man.

Nothing I've written has been expressed as anything more than an opinion, Boult does not possess a credible outswinger, if he does, where has it been this season? "Oh, he bowled it, it just doesn't work, it started too wide, it wasn't effective" - meanwhile I can point to examples this season and previous seasons where Wagner gets the ball moving both ways in the air with both the new and old ball, funny that.

You want Guptill in the side, that's your opinion, I personally think we have better and more consistent batsmen and I don't believe New Zealand cricket will become credible and move above 8th in the world in either format if we keep selecting guys like Guptill who think two 50+ scores every ten innings is "world class" and if you remove Zimbabwe and Bangladesh from that mix, it's more like two 50+ scores every 15 innings. I've got no issues him being in T20 where all he needs to do is hit hard, but he's not an intelligent cricketer, that's why I don't have any respect for him near the ODI cricket machine.

Funny how any time we've played the South African Academy or South African A side we've been destroyed, regardless if it's our NZ A, NZ or Academy teams. Yes, I fully understand there are two levels of domestic cricket in Australia, but we've got a guy who learnt his craft in South Africa, wasn't good enough to even be on the fringes, and within a couple of seasons was the dominant bowler in NZ. How many runs has Van Wyk scored here versus his time in South Africa?

Their schoolboy cricket, academy cricket and first class cricket is of a much higher standard than ours, that's also the reason they were able to come back into cricket in 1992 and instantly be competitive with any side in the world, it's why we're only ever competitive when we either have a rare patch with four to six good players or two world class players. But lets forget all of those facts and the fact that South Africa is the #1 side in the world, despite having a tonne of players leave their scene to go and dominate county cricket in England and think that their domestic cricket structure can't possibly compare to New Zealand and our ability to generate players like Guptill. Because that's entirely logical.

That's all well and good, and most of it is 100% true; I don't think anyone, Bahnz included, is going to sit here and tell you the Plunket Shield holds a candle to the Sunfoil Series (formerly the SuperSport Sup) but the CSA Provincial 3 day tournament is another story. They don't pick South Africa A players or South African Academy players based on performances at that level (they may pick some kids who have played there during the season at times based on talent but that's another thing altogether), and Wagner actually performed better for Northerns than he did for Otago anyway.

 

[hendrix]

Yes, the standard fall back argument of internet people - stop playing the point, start playing the man.

Nothing I've written has been expressed as anything more than an opinion, Boult does not possess a credible outswinger, if he does, where has it been this season? "Oh, he bowled it, it just doesn't work, it started too wide, it wasn't effective" - meanwhile I can point to examples this season and previous seasons where Wagner gets the ball moving both ways in the air with both the new and old ball, funny that.

I showed you a freaking video. I don't have access to every single ball he's ever bowled ever at the tip of my fingertips. I did see it in NZ, and yes, it was average and inconsistent. Maybe he's not as good at it with the kookaburra as the duke. Maybe he's been told to use it more sparingly after he went crazy with it in the second test in England and thus sprayed it all over the place and ruined his supremely accurate spells. Who knows?

But I'm meant to just believe you when you say that Wagner can swing it both ways whatever happens?

Funny how any time we've played the South African Academy or South African A side we've been destroyed, regardless if it's our NZ A, NZ or Academy teams. Yes, I fully understand there are two levels of domestic cricket in Australia, but we've got a guy who learnt his craft in South Africa, wasn't good enough to even be on the fringes, and within a couple of seasons was the dominant bowler in NZ. How many runs has Van Wyk scored here versus his time in South Africa?

Their schoolboy cricket, academy cricket and first class cricket is of a much higher standard than ours, that's also the reason they were able to come back into cricket in 1992 and instantly be competitive with any side in the world, it's why we're only ever competitive when we either have a rare patch with four to six good players or two world class players. But lets forget all of those facts and the fact that South Africa is the #1 side in the world, despite having a tonne of players leave their scene to go and dominate county cricket in England and think that their domestic cricket structure can't possibly compare to New Zealand and our ability to generate players like Guptill. Because that's entirely logical.

We know that the SA system is strong.

This doesn't mean that Wagner is good.
This doesn't mean that Van Wyk was good.

Trent Boult, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, BJ Watling didn't come through South African grade cricket to become some of the best players in the world right now, did they?

And yet players like Robbie Peterson did? Hmmm.

It seems to me that even from a limited pool you can get world class players. And just because you come from a bigger pool doesn't make you a bigger fish.

 

[Bahnz]

I've been on these forums longer than you have, but yes, lets pretend like you're an old world pro.

Yeah, with 180 posts in 7 years. You're a seasoned campaigner.

 

[Flem274*]

This is hilarious.

edit: not that it matters, but April comes before July. I expect you to argue otherwise though even if I posted a calendar.

 

[Blocky]

That's all well and good, and most of it is 100% true; I don't think anyone, Bahnz included, is going to sit here and tell you the Plunket Shield holds a candle to the Sunfoil Series (formerly the SuperSport Sup) but the CSA Provincial 3 day tournament is another story. They don't pick South Africa A players or South African Academy players based on performances at that level (they may pick some kids who have played there during the season at times based on talent but that's another thing altogether), and Wagner actually performed better for Northerns than he did for Otago anyway.

Right, but again go back to the point I made. Wagner went from that level of competition in South Africa and came to New Zealand and within two seasons was our domestic player of the year and no one else has taken more wickets than him since his arrival into NZ cricket. Van Wyk has been as good a batsman at domestic level since his arrival from South Africa as any player, even guys who only played schoolboy cricket in Africa have come here and performed better than a lot of the talent we produce here (De Grandhomme, etc)

By your own admission, Wagner wasn't even a regular in the top tier level of competition in South African domestic, yet he was good enough that two seasons here, he was the best performing bowler in our domestic system? I'd dare say some of the teams Auckland have put up in the last two years would lose at the level Wagner came from.

 

[Blocky]

Yeah, with 180 posts in 7 years. You're a seasoned campaigner.

Because I was actually playing cricket through those years, rather than talking all day about it, maybe?

 

[BackFootPunch]

I've been on these forums longer than you have, but yes, lets pretend like you're an old world pro.

Love it. You've been around longer than us - how incredibly relevant. And don't forget the super high level of cricket you've played that obviously means your opinion is worth more.

 

[Bahnz]

Because I was actually playing cricket through those years, rather than talking all day about it, maybe?

I'm sorry you're right. You've played club cricket, ergo your opinions are bullet proof regardless of obvious evidence to the contrary.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

 

[Flem274*]

Because I was actually playing cricket through those years, rather than talking all day about it, maybe?

I hope you're a better player than you are a talker.

Before you ask, I'm definitely a better talker than a player. I'm also self aware though, so I win.

edit: I have bowled out some rep players with my dobbers that swing both ways though. They probably committed hari kari in shame afterwards. Does that increase my Old Boys Club rating?

 

[Prince EWS]

Right, but again go back to the point I made. Wagner went from that level of competition in South Africa and came to New Zealand and within two seasons was our domestic player of the year and no one else has taken more wickets than him since his arrival into NZ cricket. Van Wyk has been as good a batsman at domestic level since his arrival from South Africa as any player, even guys who only played schoolboy cricket in Africa have come here and performed better than a lot of the talent we produce here (De Grandhomme, etc)

By your own admission, Wagner wasn't even a regular in the top tier level of competition in South African domestic, yet he was good enough that two seasons here, he was the best performing bowler in our domestic system? I'd dare say some of the teams Auckland have put up in the last two years would lose at the level Wagner came from.

I don't have much of an issue with your overall point there; I was just picking out a personal pet hate about how people view South African cricket really. The CSA Provincial three day competition is an important part of the South African season and I wish Australia and New Zealand could manage to set up similar competitions to bridge the gap between club cricket and the concentrated First Class competitions they run, but it shouldn't really have First Class status, and the standard of South Africa's premier competition being amazing doesn't mean it's (essentially) combined second/third XI comp is too. The Plunket Shield is a much weaker competition that the Sunfoil Series but stronger than the Provincial three day, just as clearly really.

In many ways this actually helps your overall point, but I only took up the micro-argument.

 

[Blocky]

I showed you a freaking video. I don't have access to every single ball he's ever bowled ever at the tip of my fingertips. I did see it in NZ, and yes, it was average and inconsistent. Maybe he's not as good at it with the kookaburra as the duke. Maybe he's been told to use it more sparingly after he went crazy with it in the second test in England and thus sprayed it all over the place and ruined his supremely accurate spells. Who knows?

But I'm meant to just believe you when you say that Wagner can swing it both ways whatever happens?

We know that the SA system is strong.

This doesn't mean that Wagner is good.
This doesn't mean that Van Wyk was good.

Trent Boult, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, BJ Watling didn't come through South African grade cricket to become some of the best players in the world right now, did they?

And yet players like Robbie Peterson did? Hmmm.

It seems to me that even from a limited pool you can get world class players. And just because you come from a bigger pool doesn't make you a bigger fish.

Go have a look at Wagner taking five wickets in six balls on YouTube, in a very short sample you'll see him take it right to left, then left to right. Now go have a look at the recent series where he setup Chanderpaul with a series of inswingers before getting him with the outswinger. Boult does not possess that ability.

 

[Blocky]

I'm sorry you're right. You've played club cricket, ergo your opinions are bullet proof regardless of obvious evidence to the contrary.

You have as much clue about what level of cricket I've played as you do the color of my underwear.

 

[hendrix]

Hey any Indian fans wanna talk about cricket?

please refrain from mentioning:
Neil Wagner
Martin Guptill
Kruger van Wyk
NZ opening batsmen options

but feel free to mention:
Indian bowlers
Indian batsmen
The Greatest Fielding Team To Play The Game
Tom Latham