Who is really to blame for England's batting collapses post 2011 in test series?

[Cabinet96]

Discuss.

 

[Spikey]

Cook has made 6 fifties and counting without going onto a century iirc

 

[BoyBrumby]

Messrs Johnson and Harris, pretty much.

 

[Cabinet96]

Cook has made 6 fifties and counting without going onto a century iirc

Not much better from our four number threes: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Yes I'm blaming you Jimmy.

 

[Cabinet96]

Messrs Johnson and Harris, pretty much.

Doesn't explain the collapses against Pakistan. And Sri Lanka. And the West Indies. And South Africa. And India. And New Zealand.

 

[Furball]

Doing their best to maintain tradition IIRC

 

[Furball]

The answer is clearly Shane Watson, ftr.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Doesn't explain the collapses against Pakistan. And Sri Lanka. And the West Indies. And South Africa. And India. And New Zealand.

Could we just pretend I actually read the thread title before I posted my semi-smart arse one liner and say that I was using "Messrs Johnson and Harris" as a synecdoche for all the quality bowlers they've faced in those series?

 

[steds]

Jonathan Trott.

 

[Sean Flynn]

Graham Gooch??

 

[hendrix]

Could we just pretend I actually read the thread title before I posted my semi-smart arse one liner and say that I was using "Messrs Johnson and Harris" as a synecdoche for all the quality bowlers they've faced in those series?

This is a very un-third-gear comment, tbh.

Still though, good batsmen should be able to score runs against good bowling.

 

[L Trumper]

Doesn't explain the collapses against Pakistan. And Sri Lanka. And the West Indies. And South Africa. And India. And New Zealand.

It mostly stems from the fact where 1) each batter is kinda assigned a specific role to perform. 2) And trying to find the players who will play in a way that will fit the system that is currently existing. 3) Obviously world class attacks make it difficult.

In regards to 1st point, even when Eng are winning under flower there was this stupid idea about first 3 defending, and next 4 attacking etc. Once the so called defenders started to fail, middle order started playing a "no where game" of defend or attack. Losing Collingwood really ****ed them, especially when collapses happen. During 06 - 08 KP-Colly used to do a lot of rescue acts. Now no one in the middle order really got any clue on how to play.
2nd point is the worst aspect of Flower's reign. Of all the players that picked under Flower only Trott was there for any length. For whatever reason they started treating international team as football club, which is extravagantly stupid. Instead of selecting best batsmen and build team, they decided to have a blue print of batting and try to search who fit in those rules,and the problem is the best batsmen available are not necessarily the one that fits the so called system.

Long story short, the main reason for collapse is middle and lower middle order simply forget how to rotate strike. I miss Colly.

 

[Jono]

Probably the batsmen.

 

[Jarquis]

Pretty sure it's me. I put money on us to beat Pakistan which inevitably jinxed us - or so my betting history would have be believe.
The bowlers did their best to ensure a positive result and so the only way natural order could be restored (that being me never winning any money ever) was if the batting collapsed in a heap. The damage has been irreversible basically and just when there were shoots of recovery i.e. Ian Bell batting in the summer just gone - I went and wished for Mitchell Johnson to bowl well and look how that turned out.

 

[Top_Cat]

Gotta be mental or team factors. I've seen absolutely nothing technically wrong with the English bats that haven't been there for many years.

 

[Top_Cat]

Shut up and read this.

Ed Cowan on facing Mitchell Johnson at the WACA | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

My plans at the WACA were simple. They had to be, against serious pace. I'd get on-side of the ball to negate the angle in, and not expect any swing away from my left-hander's stance. If it did swing, I felt I would adjust late. The plan was clear: get forward and look to push him down the ground, knowing square-of-the-wicket shots would come naturally as the innings progressed. I knew the best place to play was from the other end: clichéd, yes, but generally effective in resisting the new ball.

Two things in this paragraph explain where the England bats went wrong in playing Johnson.

 

[Jono]

Blaming Ed Cowan is a bit harsh.

 

[Xuhaib]

If a bowler gets on top of England they let him destroy them both Ajmal and Johnson are prime examples. Sure there will be a bogey bowler for a whole batting unit but eventually one or two batsman will get on top of him as the series progresses and calms everyone down England keeps on piling it on themselves and eventually allows other bowlers to take advantage of this aswell.

 

[wiff]

Gotta be mental or team factors. I've seen absolutely nothing technically wrong with the English bats that haven't been there for many years.

And there's the problem: mediocre batting for a long time, been able to get away with it facing mediocre attacks. The long-time technical flaws have been thoroughly examined by Dr Boof and Billy the Kid.

 

[GIMH]

Collingwood going definitely to blame. We were fine in the summer of 2011, Morgan was able to be semi useful against India, but ever since then we've struggled to replace him and he was the man who dug us out of these holes.