***Official*** England in New Zealand series 2013

[wellAlbidarned]

Wagner has been way unluckier, and looked the more threatening today from boundary's edge imo. I still rate him an equal if not better bowler, though his stats don't show it yet. Boult has been consistent though and often gets some swing with the new ball at a decent pace, so more than handy. Doesn't do quite enough with the old ball though.

Edit: Wagner never gets the new ball... he's being used as an old ball specialist, which is fair enough, but obviously tougher for him that way. Would love to see what he can do with a new cherry sometime as he does for Otago.

Ahaha, luck is one thing Wagner hasn't been short of this series. He's the bowling equivalent of a million monkeys with typewriters.

 

[Bahnz]

I hope I told you so in some old thread somewhere, because I've certainly been thinking it. Though much of that tbf was when Southee was bowling puss and Boult was first gunning it when he came into the side.

edit: i think in this series Boult has become McCullum's senior bowler as well.

Though tbh the strength of our bowling will be in the trio. Southee/Boult the opening pack and we're going to have to see how Bracewell, Wagner, Milne, Wheeler and Henry sort themselves out.

I like Boult, but I don't think he's better than Southee, not yet anyway. He was magnificent in the last test, and if it wasn't for the egregious sins of his past lives, he likely would've finished with a deserved 10 wicket bag.

However, as good as he was in Auckland, he was equally bad in Wellington - leaking runs at 4+ an over, drifting into the pads and dishing up short stuff with alarming regularity, and generally undermining the pressure that the rest of the side was trying to build up. He struggled with this inconsistency throughout the winter as well. He was excellent in Sri Lanka, but served up a lot of free runs in the crucial second test against India.

Southee looked like he was only at about 80% in this series (particularly in the first two matches), but he was offering far fewer freebies and when fully fit bowls at the same pace as Boult (as we saw in SL). I agree that Boult may have a higher ceiling though.

I also agree that we need someone a bit different in the 3rd seamers role. Wagner did well in this series, but he's not a natural 3rd seamer and very few of his wickets were down to anything other than batsman error. A bounce or pace bowler would be ideal. Milne hasn't played enough this season to merit a callup, but maybe Butler has earnt a go. He's actually done quite a bit of his bowling for Otago this season as first change, which should prepare him well for performing the role for the national side.

Squad for the return tour (assuming Vettori isn't fit)

Playing XI
+
Guptill
Bracewell
Butler
Ronchi

Ronchi can serve as both a replacement number 6 if Brownlie or McCullum get injured, as well as a replacement wk if Watling is injured. I don't like including Guptill, but I don't think Raval has done quite enough yet to warrant a test callup, and in spite of his recent performances, I still rate Guppy slightly higher than Redmond.

 

[hendrix]

Yesterday was the first time i'd seen Boult get reverse swing.
That adds a lot to his credentials IMO.

Happy with the declaration tbh. Great game.

The only thing I think McCullum got wrong is that he generally went for inswing against the batsmen - i.e. he'd bowl Southee vs Prior and Boult vs left hand Broad (when they were both reversing it).

Inswing is great against clueless tailenders but the English were smart about it - Prior just told everyone to get outside the line of off stump and they were safe.

It would have been better to have a bit of outswing so they actually wouldn't know when to play.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I think that was possibly more down to smart English tactics rather than McCullum tbf, Prior and Broad probably planned it out like that.

 

[hendrix]

I think that was possibly more down to smart English tactics rather than McCullum tbf, Prior and Broad probably planned it out like that.

well, it's nit-picking but there are a couple of times at the end of the over that he could have chosen Southee over Boult at the end of the over.

Probably would have been over-management.

 

[jcas0167]

I.

I also agree that we need someone a bit different in the 3rd seamers role. Wagner did well in this series, but he's not a natural 3rd seamer and very few of his wickets were down to anything other than batsman error. A bounce or pace bowler would be ideal. Milne hasn't played enough this season to merit a callup, but maybe Butler has earnt a go. He's actually done quite a bit of his bowling for Otago this season as first change, which should prepare him well for performing the role for the national side.

Squad for the return tour (assuming Vettori isn't fit)

Playing XI
+
Guptill
Bracewell
Butler
Ronchi

Ronchi can serve as both a replacement number 6 if Brownlie or McCullum get injured, as well as a replacement wk if Watling is injured. I don't like including Guptill, but I don't think Raval has done quite enough yet to warrant a test callup, and in spite of his recent performances, I still rate Guppy slightly higher than Redmond.

Is Kyle Mills still in consideration for the 3rd seamers role? He got a 10 wicket bag in a Plunket Shield game and imagine the English conditions might suit him?

Guptill's fielding is so good I'd almost bring him in for Brownlie in the starting XI (provided he gets some runs in the lead up games).

 

[Flem274*]

There is no way in hell Brownlie should be dropped.

He had a so so series, but only one batsman in this line up has a hundred to his name against Steyn/Philander/Morkel in favourable bowling conditions when his team was under the pump.

Guptill has spent the entire summer looking and being gash. I would include him in the tour party so we can name him 12th man and abuse the sub fielder rule though.

As much as I love Mills, he isn't the best candidate for being the third seamer and without writing a list probably barely slips inside the top ten FC quicks in the country.

I'll try it just to see (and in no particular order because I cbf):

Boult
Southee
Bracewell
Wagner
Milne
Wheeler
Henry
Butler
Gillespie
Bennett/Arnel/Mills/Martin

 

[Bahnz]

Is Kyle Mills still in consideration for the 3rd seamers role? He got a 10 wicket bag in a Plunket Shield game and imagine the English conditions might suit him?

Guptill's fielding is so good I'd almost bring him in for Brownlie in the starting XI (provided he gets some runs in the lead up games).

Harsh to drop Brownlie for a couple of dropped catches (as crucial as they ultimately turned out to be). It's a lot easier to improve your catching than it is to improve your batting.

 

[Flem274*]

Would say the batting ability/pecking order (bit of a mix) atm should be:

Taylor
McCullum
Williamson
Fulton
Watling
Brownlie
Rutherford
Ryder
Ronchi/Flynn
Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)

Those are the best batsmen in the country. There are a few guys who will probably get in that list next domestic season but atm they're about 12 months off. Latham, Young, Mitchell, ten million Cachopa's etc maybe Redmond makes the list of trustworthy batsmen as well.

 

[Mike5181]

1. Hamish Rutherford
2. Peter Fulton
3. Kane Williamson
4. Ross Taylor
5. Dean Brownlie
6. Brendon McCullum
7. BJ Watling+
8. Tim Southee
9. Bruce Martin
10. Neil Wagner
11. Trent Boult

12. Doug Bracewell
13. Ian Butler
14. Jesse Ryder, Luke Ronchi (If Ryder's not available)
15. Martin Guptill

 

[straw man]

I also agree that we need someone a bit different in the 3rd seamers role. Wagner did well in this series, but he's not a natural 3rd seamer and very few of his wickets were down to anything other than batsman error. A bounce or pace bowler would be ideal. Milne hasn't played enough this season to merit a callup, but maybe Butler has earnt a go. He's actually done quite a bit of his bowling for Otago this season as first change, which should prepare him well for performing the role for the national side.

Squad for the return tour (assuming Vettori isn't fit)

Playing XI
+
Guptill
Bracewell
Butler
Ronchi

Ronchi can serve as both a replacement number 6 if Brownlie or McCullum get injured, as well as a replacement wk if Watling is injured. I don't like including Guptill, but I don't think Raval has done quite enough yet to warrant a test callup, and in spite of his recent performances, I still rate Guppy slightly higher than Redmond.

McClenaghan vs Butler for that second reserve seamer spot is a difficult one. Early season in England means green seam but not warm enough to swing? Or does the Duke swing even if it's colder? I guess green seam would favour Butler just a little. However I would lean towards McClenaghan.

Wagner did ok but is destined to fly all over the world for the next few years as a reserve imo. Bracewell needs to get back ahead of him by outbowling him in the England warmup matches. Longer term there are about eight potential options for that third seamer spot and it's only a matter of time before one really puts his hand up and claims it.

To me Southee still has the higher performance ceiling than Boult due to slight physical advantages (though Boult looks stronger now than I ever expected him to be a few years ago). However Boult looks determined as **** and mentality counts for a lot - think of the world's top fast bowlers past and present and they're nearly all obsessive or ultra-competitive or unusual personalities or all of those - not saying Boult is that but to me he has the edge over the more laid-back Southee, and perhaps it's as impossible to change that as it is to change someone's physical build.

 

[jcas0167]

There is no way in hell Brownlie should be dropped.

He had a so so series, but only one batsman in this line up has a hundred to his name against Steyn/Philander/Morkel in favourable bowling conditions when his team was under the pump.

Guptill has spent the entire summer looking and being gash. I would include him in the tour party so we can name him 12th man and abuse the sub fielder rule though.

As much as I love Mills, he isn't the best candidate for being the third seamer and without writing a list probably barely slips inside the top ten FC quicks in the country.

I agree Brownlie has done enough to retain the no5 spot. I was particularly impressed with his batting when he came in when NZ were about 8/3.

***Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)***

I quite like the idea of him coming in down the order and playing his shots as he did in that first ODI. Like Astle he's such a clean striker down the ground, but would need to improve against spin. I'd have him ahead of Ronchi, Ryder & Flynn for a middle order test spot.

 

[jcas0167]

McClenaghan vs Butler for that second reserve seamer spot is a difficult one. Early season in England means green seam but not warm enough to swing? Or does the Duke swing even if it's colder? I guess green seam would favour Butler just a little. However I would lean towards McClenaghan..

Geoff Allott got a lot of swing with the Duke ball in the 1999 WC, which was held around May/early June?

 

[Flem274*]

Would it be biased of me to suggest that now Adam Milne has developed an outswinger he has the highest ceiling of any bowler in the country? As he grows older his body will get stronger as well.

Anyway, while I love looking around the traps and seeing stacked bowling line ups in every single side, realistically at least half of the ND and CD stocks alone will probably be perma injured and while I hope Bennett's new action helps him he's had years of long term injuries so he's another who I think won't quite make it. Anderson's bowling another. However as long as the national side has two or three good reserves we should be okay.

Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level, I don't see another Williamson, Taylor or Ryder in the under 25 age groups (except of course, for KW himself) and that is a bit concerning.

edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.

 

[hendrix]

Ryder for Brownlie and Milne/Bracewell for Wagner and it's our perfect team right now IMO.

I suppose a case could be made for Ronchi but I don't mind investing in Watling.

 

[Flem274*]

I agree Brownlie has done enough to retain the no5 spot. I was particularly impressed with his batting when he came in when NZ were about 8/3.

***Guptill (as opener only does he deserve to be here)***

I quite like the idea of him coming in down the order and playing his shots as he did in that first ODI. Like Astle he's such a clean striker down the ground, but would need to improve against spin. I'd have him ahead of Ronchi, Ryder & Flynn for a middle order test spot.

I disagree. I think he could do it if we are desperate, but I'd take all three of the batsmen you named ahead of Guptill in the middle order. Flynn probably edges him for the openers spot as well.

 

[Immenso]

I am pleased for Neil Wagner. But I personally still rate him as currently NZs 5th best pace bowler, behind Bracewell and Gillespie.

And to be challenged over next 12 months by McClenaghan, who while also left armer, provides variety with height/bounce, pace/heavy ball, and gets much closer to stumps at delivery.

It's pretty amazing to me that Wagner has now played more tests(6), to Gillespie's 5.
Gillespie, like Adams, will have people scratching their heads in 20 years time wondering why he didn't play more tests.

I hope Bracewell has a good tour during those FC matches and regains that spot.

 

[jcas0167]

.
Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level, I don't see another Williamson, Taylor or Ryder in the under 25 age groups (except of course, for KW himself) and that is a bit concerning.

edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.

I think it will be interesting to see how the under 19's go in the series against Australia (starting in a few days?). Seifert seems to be a standout.

I think Southee is more temperamental than Boult. More openly combative with his words with the batsmen. Boult seems quietly determined and poker faced.

 

[Bahnz]

Would it be biased of me to suggest that now Adam Milne has developed an outswinger he has the highest ceiling of any bowler in the country? As he grows older his body will get stronger too.

Think it's way too early to even guess how good Milne could be. Can he sustain his swing while bowling at full pace? Can he consistently hit a good length at speed? We just don't know yet. I'd want to see him play a full season of domestic cricket before being asked to guess how good he could be.

 

[straw man]

Also while we have some okay young batsmen, and while Peter Fulton proves (as O'Brien did for bowlers) that FC journeyman batsmen can do a job in the right circumstances at test level.

Haha, I had this thought last night that Fulton should have come out after scoring all these runs and said "this is for all the domestic journeymen*, for all the guys that keep playing when their New Zealand ambitions have been thwarted, when they haven't quite managed to step up, this is for Matthew Bell who was recalled in 2008 and scored three ducks and averaged under 20, it's for Peter Ingram who was reluctantly given two tests after piling on the domestic runs and then dropped as soon as possible, for Craig Cumming and Michael Papps and Tim McIntosh and especially for Matthew Sinclair. I did it.".

Emotional

* unfair really to describe Fulton as a journeyman - he's only fitted that label in the last few years - for many years before that he was more a talented batsman that hadn't achieved as much as he might have.

edit: @ Straw Man: Southee does get pretty fired up at times. I'd say he's angrier than Boult. Will still be a very good bowler if all goes well.

Not talking about being angry - talking about determination to be the best possible, which means a tremendous amount of work off the park and an all-consuming single focus. I'm not questioning Southee's dedication, just saying I get the feeling Boult really wants it. And I think he's quite smart too - thinks a lot about how to get batsmen out.