The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

It's a question that cannot be answered because there is not enough evidence or data. And hence is a bit like asking, 'Does God exist?' In the end you have to take it on faith one way or the other.

I do like this piece by Harold Larwood though;

Very nice watson, though in this case there is reasonable evidence that he would have been a great test batsman.

 

[The Sean]

In my dreams Archie Jackson and Victor Trumper walk out to open the innings in an Australian All Time XI. Even their names sound awesome together:


1. Victor Trumper
2. Archie Jackson



I guess we could post "Australian Dream XI". The most graceful, and easy to watch cricketers we've produced....

- Victor Trumper
- Archie Jackson
- Neil Harvey
- Greg Chappell
- Mark Waugh
- Stan McCabe
- Don Tallon
- Ray Lindwall
- Shane Warne
- Dennis Lillee
- Ted McDonald

Wonderful side mate - there's an argument for Kippax or O'Neill too on the style front, but there's not much to disagree with there at all.

 

[watson]

Very nice watson, though in this case there is reasonable evidence that he would have been a great test batsman.

'would have been' is the operative phrase Coronis.

Jackson would walk into any ATG team if all the batsman on show were 'would have beens', and that's all he were up against.

However, batsman like Bob Simpson, Don Bradman, Neil Harvey, Greg Chappell, Allan Border, and Steve Waugh are NOT 'would have been great Test batsman', they ARE great Test batsman by any definition of the word great. And so which one of these gentleman are we too leave out to make way for Jackson? Not on merit mind you, but merely because it takes our fancy?

 

[Red]

'would have been' is the operative phrase Coronis.

Jackson would walk into any ATG team if all the batsman on show were 'would have beens', and that's all he were up against.

However, batsman like Bob Simpson, Don Bradman, Neil Harvey, Greg Chappell, Allan Border, and Steve Waugh are NOT 'would have been great Test batsman', they ARE great Test batsman by any definition of the word great.

Unfortunately the distance required to leap from 'would be' to 'is' resembles a yawning chasm when I am thinking about any ATG Aussie team.

Always a bit of romance about those who die young tragically, but there's not a great deal of difference between picking Archie Jackson in an ATG Australian side to picking Barry Richards in an ATG SA side. Jackson played twice as many tests as Richards.

 

[Howe_zat]

When people pick Richards they don't do so for hisTests.

 

[Coronis]

'would have been' is the operative phrase Coronis.

Jackson would walk into any ATG team if all the batsman on show were 'would have beens', and that's all he were up against.

However, batsman like Bob Simpson, Don Bradman, Neil Harvey, Greg Chappell, Allan Border, and Steve Waugh are NOT 'would have been great Test batsman', they ARE great Test batsman by any definition of the word great. And so which one of these gentleman are we too leave out to make way for Jackson? Not on merit mind you, but merely because it takes our fancy?

Yeah, I understand your point. I was referring to the difference in believing in Archie Jackson and God

 

[watson]

Always a bit of romance about those who die young tragically, but there's not a great deal of difference between picking Archie Jackson in an ATG Australian side to picking Barry Richards in an ATG SA side. Jackson played twice as many tests as Richards.

Barry Richards played 339 FC games, averaged 55, and compiled 80 centuries. This is about 5 times more than Jackson who played only 70 FC games, averaged 46, and compiled 11 centuries. And then the debate goes on from there..........

(Haven't we been down this road before Monk?)

 

[watson]

Yeah, I understand your point. I was referring to the difference in believing in Archie Jackson and God

I agree . The evidence that Archie Jackson is a superior batsman to Don Bradman far out weighs the empirical and philosophical evidence for the existience of the adjective known as 'God'.

 

[Bahnz]

Best NZ players I've seen (since 99ish):

1. Mark Richardson
2. Brendon McCullum
3. Stephen Fleming
4. Ross Taylor
5. Nathan Astle
6. Jesse Ryder
7. Chris Cairns
8. Adam Parore
9. Daniel Vettori
10. Tim Southee
11. Shane Bond

I know you may hate the guy atm, but you're mad if you're seriously picking Parore ahead of McCullum. Slightly better keeping for considerably poorer batting.

 

[Mike5181]

I know you may hate the guy atm, but you're mad if you're seriously picking Parore ahead of McCullum. Slightly better keeping for considerably poorer batting.

McCullum's my second opener.

 

[Prince EWS]

McCullum's my second opener.

Yeah. McCullum+Parore > McIntosh+McCullum.

 

[Bahnz]

Haha, I need more sleep.

 

[MartinB]

With Miller in the team as the first change pace bowler there is no excuse for not playing both O'Reilly and Warne.

O'Reilly was comfortably the best and greatest bowler of his generation, and Warne was possibly the best and greatest bowler of his generation. The fact that they are very different leggies with O'Reilly employing a unique grip on the ball to spin it at pace is an added bonus.

Overall 3 pace bowlers with O'Reilly / Warne is probably the best option for Australia. Both had excellent first innings bowling averages, and both would be dangerous on the first day of the Test. Most off-spinners (left / right arm) tend to struggle in the first innings.

Another option (possibly belongs in the romantic 11) might be to replace one of the Spinners with Bill Johston as he bowled both pace an spin. Gives you 4 pace bowlers or 2 spinners as required + the left hand variation.

Wisden - Bill Johnston

 

[the big bambino]

Johnston is probably the most underrated and overlooked great Aussie bowler.

 

[The Sean]

I've gushed over him many times on CW - a wonderful bowler.

And consider this. Below is a list of Australians who have averaged more than 100 with the bat on a First Class tour of England:

Bradman, DG
Johnston, WA

WAG.

 

[MartinB]

According to the Wisden article, the 100+ average was a little contrived, but a lot of fun for those involved.

Just seamed to me an attack of

Pace: Lillee, McGrath, Miller, Johnston WA
Spin: Warne, Johnston WA

is a bit better balanced than the alternatives

 

[kyear2]

So which player was the best combination of Batsman/ All Rounder and Slip Fielder:

Garry Sobers
Greg Chappell
Wally Hammond
Brian Lara
Rickey Ponting
Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis
Neil Harvey
Everton Weekes
Bobby Simpson
Sunil Gavaskar
Clive Lloyd
Bruce Mitchell
Allan Border
Matthew Hayden
Graeme Pollock

All Rounders
Ian Botham
Keith Miller
Tony Greig
Andrew Flintoff

 

[Coronis]

So which player was the best combination of Batsman/ All Rounder and Slip Fielder:

Garry Sobers
Greg Chappell
Wally Hammond
Brian Lara
Rickey Ponting
Viv Richards
Jacques Kallis
Neil Harvey
Everton Weekes
Sunil Gavaskar
Allan Border
Matthew Hayden
Graeme Pollock

All Rounders
Ian Botham
Keith Miller
Tony Greig
Andrew Flintoff

Sobers was unbelievable at leg slip. Clearly his batting and bowling wasn't good enough for him.

 

[kyear2]

He was also exceptional at second slip, his slip fielding is greatly under rated and was equally important as his bowling.

 

[Flametree]

Bobby Simpson says "Hello?"