CW All-Time XI

[Jager]

I think Wasim has to be the greatest left arm fast bowler to have ever played.

btw IIRC even Dale Steyn has a lot of tail end wickets (cbf looking it up) but that doesn't mean he doesn't trouble the top order. And Zaheer Khan probably has more top order wickets than McG but that doesn't automatically make him better than McG

You are right, it doesn't determine who is better. That being said, I would like my opening bowlers to take top order wickets, so it could account for something. Welcome back by the way!

 

[smash84]

You are right, it doesn't determine who is better. That being said, I would like my opening bowlers to take top order wickets, so it could account for something. Welcome back by the way!

haha....thanks

Wasim to me is a bit like Lillee. Rated EXTREMELY highly by his peers but probably doesn't have stats as good as others.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I'm convinced he doesn't hve the best stats because of the fielding he had to put up with.

 

[Jager]

I'm convinced he doesn't hve the best stats because of the fielding he had to put up with.

That brings up an interesting comparison, because most people tend to believe that the fielding pre-Packer era was lax and unrefined.

 

[smash84]

from what I hear it was still better than the Pak fielding of the 90s and 00s

 

[kyear2]

Hence why I have repeatably said that most of the great teams and bowlers had great slip cordons. Dont know why we don't reconise great batsman/slippers as all rounders.

Wasim did though have a much higher percentage of lower order wickets that high and middle order, and more than any of the other great bowlers, and one cant totally blame the field and Waqar managed to get them out. As a opening bowler your job is to get out the top order regularly, not clean up the tail. He may have made his peers look bad, but he rarely got them out with the consistentcy he should have or that others did.

 

[Jager]

Hence why I have repeatably said that most of the great teams and bowlers had great slip cordons. Dont know why we don't reconise great batsman/slippers as all rounders.

Wasim did though have a much higher percentage of lower order wickets that high and middle order, and more than any of the other great bowlers, and one cant totally blame the field and Waqar managed to get them out. As a opening bowler your job is to get out the top order regularly, not clean up the tail. He may have made his peers look bad, but he rarely got them out with the consistentcy he should have or that others did.

Do you rate players such as Bob Simpson extremely highly for that matter?

 

[smash84]

how the heck does awesome slip fielding become a pre requisite of becoming a great player/team? What kind of silly logic is this kyear2 which you keep repeating everytime without really explaining the fact that a good slip cordon is there because of good bowlers. The bowlers make the team great and not the slip cordon.

 

[Jager]

how the heck does awesome slip fielding become a pre requisite of becoming a great player/team? What kind of silly logic is this kyear2 which you keep repeating everytime without really explaining the fact that a good slip cordon is there because of good bowlers. The bowlers make the team great and not the slip cordon.

I like the emphasis on fielding personally. The slips take the tough chances that could change a game, that's for sure.

 

[smash84]

but chances in the slips don't come without having the bowlers to produce them do they.

What would Australia do with Tubby Taylor Mark Waugh and Shane Warne in the slips and Ponting at gully if Mohammad Sami was bowlling?

Yes they will enjoy the batting

 

[Jager]

but chances in the slips don't come without having the bowlers to produce them do they.

What would Australia do with Tubby Taylor Mark Waugh and Shane Warne in the slips and Ponting at gully if Mohammad Sami was bowlling?

Yes they will enjoy the batting

Of course good bowlers are essential, but kyear was talking about the batsmen being excellent slip fielders to compliment the bowlers.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Which Wasim did not have access to. And you can see from his stats that he has more bowled/lbw because of it but that's not enough.

Imagine the great WI bowlers who mainly relied on catches to not have such good slip fielders. Would affect their stats wouldn't it.

 

[kyear2]

Do you rate players such as Bob Simpson extremely highly for that matter?

Very. Very under rated opener whose average is much higher in that position. He was also a useful spin bowler and a superb slip fielder. The Hammonds, Chappells, Sobers, Kallis's are very key members of their teams because of their all round abilities. Even the Lloyds, Borders, Taylors, Richards when one fators in their captaincy.

 

[ankitj]

Opportunity cost of replacing an ATG slip fielder with an average joe is much, much lesser than opportunity cost of replacing an ATG pacer with an average one. I won't explain why. It is obvious from the experience of watching cricket.

 

[smash84]

Opportunity cost of replacing an ATG slip fielder with an average joe is much, much lesser than opportunity cost of replacing an ATG pacer with an average one. I won't explain why. It is obvious from the experience of watching cricket.

kyear2. Are you listening?

 

[Jager]

I don't think kyear ever said that you should choose great slip fielders over great bowlers. I think he was saying that great bowlers and teams often have great slip cordons, and these are often batsmen, for example Simspon, Richards, Hammond, Kallis, Taylor, Waugh, Hayden etc.

 

[smash84]

with kyear2 it seems that a great slip cordon is a requirement for being an ATG team.

I don't think a great slip cordon is something that makes a team great but rather an effect of having great bowlers

 

[Dan]

kyear2. Are you listening?

I don't think kyear is suggesting a dichotomy between selecting great pace bowlers and selecting great slip fieldsmen.

 

[Jager]

with kyear2 it seems that a great slip cordon is a requirement for being an ATG team.

I don't think a great slip cordon is something that makes a team great but rather an effect of having great bowlers

For me, it is not absolutely essential but it adds a huge amount of value to it.

 

[kyear2]

Opportunity cost of replacing an ATG slip fielder with an average joe is much, much lesser than opportunity cost of replacing an ATG pacer with an average one. I won't explain why. It is obvious from the experience of watching cricket.

I never even intimated that slip fielders are more important than great bolwers. I was replying to to sentiment that Wasim didnt take as many top order batsmen because of the fielding of his team. There is no doubt that the key to the West Indies dominace was their fast bowlers and similarly for the Australians with Waugh, Mcgrath and Gilespie ect. But what helped push them over the top was the great slip fileding exhibited by these teams (also the great S.A teams of the early 70's) that greatly supported and complimented the great bolwers. Nothing is more demoralising to a bowler than to finally induce an edge then to see it spilled by the keeper or someone in the cordonThere is no denying that in- opportune drops in the slips can cost team opportunities and victories.