Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

[SeamUp]

Wow, just a touch controversial and in your face.

I hate comparing across eras but I guess its done for a bit of fun and debate.

Kallis and Sobers are both legends and I see no need to say one is better than the other. But I would say is that I would have both in my team. Also very different styles of all-rounders. If you did research on Sobers and read up on Sobers and see footage you can see his style was one that made people get excited and thats why people possibly rate him over Kallis. But to me I love technicians at work and thats why I love Jacques Kallis...you want to teach a young boy how to defend his wicket for his life and how to have a proper technique...you show them Kallis. Still bowling 140kmph at 36 is also freakish. But to me both in my team thankyou!

PrinceEWS hits nail on the head...if Steyn retires tomorrow...Donald is the better. You go on about stats and so on... stats cannot predict the future and how good someone can be over a longer period into the future. But once again just remember them both...well in Donalds case legend and Steyn potentially a legend.

G. Pollock was an absolute freak and if you read what players of his era said about him, you just know how good he was. Bradman, Benaud et al. There is also plenty of footage that I have seen of G. Pollock internationally and I was lucky to see him domestically in the mid 80's and wow can only describe him. Trott and Mussey are just nowhere near him as a player as people have said...listen to those who played with or against him an era or legends who had retired already and have seen over the different eras and G. Pollock is a different level.

 

[rza]

Either way it's definitely a lot more complicated that Kallis's average > Sobers => Kallis > Sobers.

What about Kallis' longevity in terms of tests played?

 

[Spark]

Longevity is only one factor, there are others.

I mean, you're asking a hell of a lot here - I personally rate Tendulkar as the second best of all time, so...

 

[Prince EWS]

You make two good points. Correct me if I'm wrong. If Steyn passes Donald wickets at more or less the same average and strike-rate as he has now, do we then conclude he was better or equal? If Kallis plays for three more years after Tendulkar retires, and he passes his runs at more or less the same average, do we then rate Kallis in the same level as Tendulkar?

I think you're looking at it a little simplistically. There are more things to look at than just the base rate, which is why I dabble in things like standardised averages and relative longevity. But assuming all other nuances and such equal (which is never the case, but hey ho) then yeah, sure.

Let me use your analogy against you. Kallis played 50 tests (I think Sobers played 93 tests) more than Sobers, so why doesn't his longevity elevate him above Sobers, if Tendulkar's longevity elevates him above most?

Longevity is about how long you can give your services to your side rather than how many Tests you actually play. South Africa played a lot more Tests in Kallis's time than the West Indies played in Sobers's, so Tests played is not exactly a fair comparison. Sobers actually had a longer career than Kallis has so far so, if anything, he gets more points in longevity.

 

[rza]

Wow, just a touch controversial and in your face.

I hate comparing across eras but I guess its done for a bit of fun and debate.

Kallis and Sobers are both legends and I see no need to say one is better than the other. But I would say is that I would have both in my team. Also very different styles of all-rounders. If you did research on Sobers on read up on Sobers and see footage you can see his style was one that made people get excited and thats why people possibly rate him over Kallis but to me I love technicians at work and thats why I love Jacques Kallis...you want to teach a young boy how to defend his wicket for his life and how to have a proper technique...you show them Kallis. Still bowling 140kmph at 36 is also freakish.

PrinceEWS hits nail on the head...if Steyn retires tomorrow...Donald is the better. You go on about stats and so on... stats cannot predict the future and how good someone can be over a longer period into the future. But once again just remember them both...well in Donalds case legend and Steyn potentially a legend.

G. Pollock was an absolute freak and if you read what players of his era said about him, you just know how good he was. Bradman, Benaud et al. There is also plenty of footage that I have seen of G. Pollock internationally and I was lucky to see him domestically in the mid 80's and wow can only describe him. Trott and Mussey are just nowhere near him as a player as people have said...listen to those who played with or against him an era or legends who had retired already and have seen over the different eras and G. Pollock is a different level.

If a person says they rate Sobers more because of his style, then I have no problem with that since stats are close. I rate Lara higher than Tendulkar because of his style of play and the kinda shots he played, but that is not absurd because Lara's stats are also impressive. So I guess the same can be said of Pollock then, but isn't it amazing that today's bowlers will probably say the same about Sehwag, considering the abuse they got from him?

 

[SeamUp]

What about Kallis' longevity in terms of tests played?

Sobers didn't get the opportunity to play as many tests otherwise his longevity could and probably would have been the same as Jacques Henry Kallis. Both legends and leave it as that.

As I say, different eras...different needs to be at the top!

 

[Howe_zat]

Thread to be renamed "Cribb and Spark educate a newb on how to use Statsguru".

 

[Spark]

Thread to be renamed "Cribb and Spark educate a newb on how to use Statsguru".

Haha I've really got splinters up my backside when it comes to the debate on how useful stats are. I'll make the points I did today about watching the game >>> stats any day of the week but it was only a few days ago that I pulled up a fairly convoluted statsguru filter to measure the best "converters" in cricket currently.

 

[rza]

Sobers didn't get the opportunity to play as many tests otherwise his longevity could and probably would have been the same as Jacques Henry Kallis. Both legends and leave it as that.

As I say, different eras...different needs to be at the top!

That's what I think as well, yet people have Sobers in their All-Time XI for Batsmen or top 5 All-rounders of all-time, yet Kallis is not even in the top 30 for batsmen. How is it possible that Kallis is not number two just behind Sobers in the all-rounders list, yet there's not much to choose between the two?

 

[Crazy Sam]

I'm pretty sure Crazy Sam was put on this earth just to counter balance my Symonds views tbf, and he should probably be taken about as seriously as I am on the matter.

This may be so :P But Symonds and Hussey had form and experience in English conditions and were both in form at the time. Remember we lost to Bangladesh that tour in the game that Symonds was out. From what I recall our test bats collectively weren't in that great touch leading into that Ashes.


Do people still think Kallis bats for his average? I wonder if factors into people's considerations; I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. It's all well and good to score runs or take wickets but not if it isn't helping your team win.

 

[vic_orthdox]

This may be so :P But Symonds and Hussey had form and experience in English conditions and were both in form at the time. Remember we lost to Bangladesh that tour in the game that Symonds was out. From what I recall our test bats collectively weren't in that great touch leading into that Ashes.


Do people still think Kallis bats for his average? I wonder if factors into people's considerations; I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. It's all well and good to score runs or take wickets but not if it's helping your team win.

I reckon Symonds being rewarded for his misdemeanour with a Test spot was not high on the list of possibilities.

 

[Spark]

Which one was that? The one where he turned up on the morning of a match completely off his face? Can't recall, they've all sort of blurred into one incoherent blob.

 

[SeamUp]

That's what I think as well, yet people have Sobers in their All-Time XI for Batsmen or top 5 All-rounders of all-time, yet Kallis is not even in the top 30 for batsmen. How is it possible that Kallis is not number two just behind Sobers in the all-rounders list, yet there's not much to choose between the two?

Its all personal perception.

Without doubt he is the best all-rounder with Sobers imo but my mate and your mate may think differently.

I mean we can all be lucky that our great game has seen all-rounders like...

Aubrey Faulkner
Keith Miller
Trevor Goddard
Eddie Barlow
Garfield Sobers
Tony Greig
Mike Procter
Clive Rice
Richard Hadlee
Imraan Khan
Kapil Dev
Ian Botham
Brian McMillan
Jacques Kallis
Shaun Pollock
Andrew Flintoff

Everyone would have a different order for the above.

 

[rza]

Do people still think Kallis bats for his average? I wonder if factors into people's considerations; I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. It's all well and good to score runs or take wickets but not if it's helping your team win.

Stand to be corrected, but isn't the Kallis the greatest match-winner in the history of Test Cricket in terms of man-of-the-match awards won?

 

[Mike5181]

Chris Cairns>Andrew Flintoff!!!!

 

[Spark]

This may be so :P But Symonds and Hussey had form and experience in English conditions and were both in form at the time. Remember we lost to Bangladesh that tour in the game that Symonds was out. From what I recall our test bats collectively weren't in that great touch leading into that Ashes.


Do people still think Kallis bats for his average? I wonder if factors into people's considerations; I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. It's all well and good to score runs or take wickets but not if it's helping your team win.

Robelinda to comment.

 

[rza]

Its all personal perception.

Without doubt he is the best all-rounder with Sobers imo but my mate and your mate may think differently.

I mean we can all be lucky that our great game has seen all-rounders like...

Aubrey Faulkner
Keith Miller
Trevor Goddard
Eddie Barlow
Garfield Sobers
Tony Greig
Mike Procter
Clive Rice
Richard Hadlee
Imraan Khan
Kapil Dev
Ian Botham
Brian McMillan
Jacques Kallis
Shaun Pollock
Andrew Flintoff

Everyone would have a different order for the above.

People would have a different order, but for some reason Sobers is always on top and Kallis is far away behind. I have no problem if people say Imran was the best, but I have a problem when there are 10 places between Kallis and Sobers - that doesn't make logical sense.

 

[SeamUp]

Do people still think Kallis bats for his average? I wonder if factors into people's considerations; I don't really have an opinion one way or the other. It's all well and good to score runs or take wickets but not if it's helping your team win.

I wouldn't say so because since re-admission in the last 20 years, South Africa have probably the 2nd best record ito victtories to games behind Australia and Kallis has been in the forefront of many of those victories for South Africa in tough batting conditions at times at home.

 

[Mike5181]

People would have a different order, but for some reason Sobers is always on top and Kallis is far away behind. I have no problem if people say Imran was the best, but I have a problem when there are 10 places between Kallis and Sobers - that doesn't make logical sense.

He'll be rated up there eventually. Give it time.

 

[weldone]

Sobers > Kallis, because of his better batting and longevity
Donald = Steyn, IMO
Pollock >> Trott, because of his FC record