Kallis Vs Dravid

[centurymaker]

Australia has never had any problems batting in SA. I don't know how many of you have watched SA tests in SA since 92 but its my observation that unless they are up against a strong bowling attack they generally prepare sporting wickets against teams they know have weak bowling attacks. Teams like NZ, India for instance and WI and Sri Lanka for the main part have always been faced with green tops more than other teams, when Australia tours we get flatter wickets and they are good for batting, but our bowling has always won us tests in SA and we have bowled much better than the home SA bowlers almost every series, like they are expecting to run through us easily or something, always been odd they haven't fired at home against us. Can only think of one green top we played on and that was the 2nd test 97, but it was more overcast conditions and a bit of grass that day, flattened out and we chased 270 to win.

this.

 

[Howe_zat]

I don't agree. You're either measuring quality based on performance merits or you're measuring quality based on watchability. The bastard child of both has no real place in anything IMO especially when it's conditional on it being close to begin within.

Don't agree at all. How good a player is tends to contribute a hell of a lot to how entertaining they are, especially if they're on your team. The two things can be very hard to separate, and I don't think you should have to.

 

[Howe_zat]

Baldly, it's not a statistically significant difference, no matter how you slice, manipulate, recalculate or model it. This is not to say that there's not a significant difference between Dravid and Kallis but that the measures suck.

This why just about every statistical argument between guys who are even vaguely close falls down. Once you start drilling down for further insight, you bump into small cells and big errors. It's thoroughly pointless, just about every generated statistic I've seen using cricket stats is able to be shot to pieces without trying too hard.

Nice one TC.

 

[Top_Cat]

Will you fund my study then? Costs'll be low, I promise the footage will be provided for free or I'll lodge a copyright claim against every single one of Rob's videos (the fast bowling ones excepted, of course. I like them).

 

[Howe_zat]

Tempting. Unfortunately, I am poor. On Halloween I had to explain to a pair of heartbroken eight year olds that we penniless students can no longer afford sweets.

 

[Flem274*]

That post doesn't read how you want it to read.

Or maybe it does...

 

[BlazeDragon]

Stats don't tell you how green a pitch is. Where are all these fabulous green top innings? You can't look up stats on cricinfo to tell you that.

SA is considered to have green top pitches mostly and Kallis has done well all around SA. What more do you possibly want from him?

 

[BlazeDragon]

Don't agree at all. How good a player is tends to contribute a hell of a lot to how entertaining they are, especially if they're on your team. The two things can be very hard to separate, and I don't think you should have to.

Still can't see any arguments made as to why being more entertaining helps your team out.

 

[Furball]

SA is considered to have green top pitches mostly and Kallis has done well all around SA. What more do you possibly want from him?

So no argument, just lazy stereotyping.

 

[Howe_zat]

Still can't see any arguments made as to why being more entertaining helps your team out.

It doesn't. Think the other way around.

 

[robelinda]

SA is considered to have green top pitches mostly and Kallis has done well all around SA. What more do you possibly want from him?

I don't want anything from Kallis, you are the one making the statements, and you have absolutely zero facts to back up them up. Myths don't count as facts. You haven't provided the smallest bit of evidence, and internet forum gossip isn't evidence.

 

[BlazeDragon]

I don't want anything from Kallis, you are the one making the statements, and you have absolutely zero facts to back up them up. Myths don't count as facts. You haven't provided the smallest bit of evidence, and internet forum gossip isn't evidence.

What "evidence" do you actually want? Stats aren't good enough for you, articles written about it isn't good enough for you then what exactly can you possibly want? You already have your mind set about this so I think even if you somebody held you hand to the SA pitches and showed it to you would still deny it.

 

[BlazeDragon]

It doesn't. Think the other way around.

 

[robelinda]

What "evidence" do you actually want? Stats aren't good enough for you, articles written about it isn't good enough for you then what exactly can you possibly want? You already have your mind set about this so I think even if you somebody held you hand to the SA pitches and showed it to you would still deny it.

None of that is evidence at all. I have seen every innings Kallis has played in SA, have you? I don't care what the stats say or some random article, if he has been so successful on green SA wickets its not asking too much to see a list of such masterful innings. But you can't do that because, well i don't know actually, why is that? Feel free to prove me wrong with some factual evidence, i have already admitted I am prepared to have my mind changed, but random myths won't be good enough. I would put forward that Kallis has looked all at sea on most occasions when the pitch has been green in SA, and when faced with similar conditions in England he has looked terrible.

 

[BlazeDragon]

None of that is evidence at all. I have seen every innings Kallis has played in SA, have you? I don't care what the stats say or some random article, if he has been so successful on green SA wickets its not asking too much to see a list of such masterful innings. But you can't do that because, well i don't know actually, why is that? Feel free to prove me wrong with some factual evidence, i have already admitted I am prepared to have my mind changed, but random myths won't be good enough. I would put forward that Kallis has looked all at sea on most occasions when the pitch has been green in SA, and when faced with similar conditions in England he has looked terrible.

I have actually I have watched every match SA has been involved since the 90's.

What exactly do you think stats are some made up numbers put together by some random people so they a complete a person's record? If his stats says he has done well in SA then he has done well I don't see what more can a person want.

I can only assume you want to see some sort of Youtube clip. Well excuse us by not every one of us has "Been taping cricket since 1982" we don't all tape cricket to upload it on Youtube. Kallis being an SA player is quite underrated as well he doesn't even have that many videos of him in Youtube all together unlike Indian/Pakistani players who has hundreds of them and has accomplished a lot less. The most viewed videos I have even seen from Kallis is him getting hit for a boundary or getting out.

Still I have actually found one of these videos of him doing well in SA
Jacques Kallis 120 vs South Africa 1st Test 2009-10 - YouTube

Or are you gonna say that wasn't actually a good innings this time.

and when faced with similar conditions in England he has looked terrible

That's exactly why I said Kallis shouldn't get extra points or anything for doing well in SA. Mostly everybody does well in home pitches no matter what the conditions.

 

[robelinda]

Jacques Kallis vs South Africa? I guess that counts as one innings, pushing it though, team was in trouble, hardly a green top nightmare pitch. I'll even settle for a list of test matches in SA where it was green where he did well against at least a decent attack. And again, i have never argued he hasn't done well in SA. its this whole mythical green top thing, there is virtually no hard evidence he has mastered bowler friendly conditions in SA, and if you want to go around saying he has then please list such innings. one or two or three innings over 16 years isn't mastery at all, more like a fluke.

 

[BlazeDragon]

Jacques Kallis vs South Africa?

Its vs England the uploader got the title wrong.

 

[BlazeDragon]

This is getting nowhere is there? I don't get why you have such a hard time accepting SA are bowler favored pitches.If the stats says that all other team but an ATG Australian side struggles with the bat there and bowlers in general has one the best records with the bowl there then hey it must be true. And lol its turned into a fluke now.

So let me get this straight so there are no complains this time, you just want a list of innings where Kallis has done well in SA other than against Ban, Zim, WI and NZ? Okay that shouldn't be too hard:

2nd Test: South Africa v Australia at Durban, Mar 24-28, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

5th Test: South Africa v England at Centurion, Jan 21-25, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

3rd Test: South Africa v India at Cape Town, Jan 2-6, 2011 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

1st Test: South Africa v Pakistan at Durban, Dec 26-29, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Listed a ton against every country other than SL. If that's not enough to satisfy you I don't know what even could be.

 

[robelinda]

Jesus, you again misunderstand. How many of those innings were on green tops? Why are you finding it hard to fathom that I'm not arguing that he hasn't done well in SA, just the green top myth ONLY......that really isn't hard to understand. At NO point have i said to list the good innings that weren't again the great aussie side. This discussion is going nowhere because you are putting words in my mouth and avoiding the EXACT questions I'm asking.

 

[Cabinet96]

I know what you mean Rob. Not every wicket in South Africa is a green top and often it's a misconception about how hostile the pitches are. Lets remember South Africa have had some pretty good seamers around to make the pitches look a lot harder to bat on than they really are.

However, I would definitely say that the South African pitches are harder to bat on than the Indian pitches. Besides that game at Cape Town against India was by no means a flat pitch. South Africa had made it very spicy for the first innings and by the time of the 3rd innings it was doing a bit for seamers and spinners. Admittedly it wasn't a great attack though. Still a monumental effort.