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Battle of Cricketers II - CW's Favorite Cricketer (now underway)
- Thread starter Cevno
- Start date
smash84
The Tiger King
I think his stint in the commentary box doesn't earn him that much love........and he is up against some big guns too
Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
Never been a very big fan tbh.
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Magnificent post
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
Loved and being popular may not equate to the same thing. Yes, Botham was a truly great cricketer and had a certain impishness about his cricket that many people loved to bits. To English cricket, at that point in time, he was superbly refreshing and that propelled him to instant stardom (alongwith his excellent cricketing skills).
Like all stories and personalities, however, this one had a flip side as well. Gooch, Emburey, Boycott and others would most likely remember Botham for the epic betrayal and a lot of fans could remember him for being a **** (in their perception).
Wasn't a great sportsman or an "athlete" with very good work ethics for the last 7-8 years of his career. Add to that his supreme ego and you may have an explanation as to why there could be a few who don't regard Beefy that highly.
Besides, as I understand, this exercise is about one's favourite cricketers. May not mean that the best cricketers sweep through each round!
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zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
What do you mean?
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dunno, but if the point he's making is that those he named worked desperately hard to do the best they could with what limited ability they had, whereas Beefy did very little to maximise and preserve the huge talent he had, then he has a valid criticism of the big fella, imo anyway
four_or_six
Cricketer Of The Year
Hadlee
Trescothick
Botham
Swann
Jardine
Vettori
Trescothick
Botham
Swann
Jardine
Vettori
zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
Well quite. He betrayed his own talent, which is the first count on the indictment to my mind. But apart from that, I struggle to see him as someone prone to betrayal. It's not as though he, say, joined a rebel tour to Apartheid South Africa or refused to tell his team mates how to pick opposition spinners
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I suppose he may mean the Rebel Tour actually - isn't there a conspiracy theory that says Botham agreed to go for as much as the rest put together before having second thoughts, and that it was therefore disingenuous to say the least to come out with all that "couldn't look Viv in the eye " stuff
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
The rebel tour to South Africa was organised in the early 80s with the full approval and collective cooperation of many English players. You'd appreciate that in a hush-hush affair like this, the 'all swim or all sink' mantra holds true.
As it stood twelve players participated - Boycott, Gooch, Emburey, John Lever, Underwood, Larkins, Amiss, Hendrick, Knott, Willey, Old and Taylor. Other English star players (Botham and Gower being the biggest) were in the reckoning but greater financial incentives back home persuaded them not to take the risk. While that was understandable in many ways (given the nature of difficulty of choice the men involved had to make), Botham's exit was rather unceremonius.
They were understood at that time as purely moneterial decisions and as basic etiquette, the men who had opted out were expected not to damn their colleagues - given that they were actively contemplating sailing in the same boat. In such a background, Ian Botham decided to ride a high horse by claiming that he had turned down the tour for "moral reasons".
Given the apartheid situation in Zuid Afrika, Beefy's explanation was that he "would never have been able to look Viv Richards in the eye again" had he made that tour. This comment, given Botham's active involvement through all stages of the rebel tour, did not go down well with his rebel colleagues.
An extract from Boycott's autobiography:
General NOTE to mods and others: This is clearly an off-topic post intended to clarify a point. If anyone has an opinion on this subject, please feel free to send a VM to me. We don't want this thread to head a different course.
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zaremba
Cricketer Of The Year
An interesting diversion, and so long as we don't flog this horse for too long I'm sure people will bear with us.
I have to say, I think I was previously unaware of Botham's potential involvement in the rebel tour. But does what you describe amount to epic disloyalty? I'm not sure. And even if it did, I don't think many people in this kind of poll would be put off Botham as a result. For one thing, it's not a very well-known matter, and for another all that it involves is disloyalty to people who were themselves selling out in what's generally seen as quite a morally questionable way.
I have to say, I think I was previously unaware of Botham's potential involvement in the rebel tour. But does what you describe amount to epic disloyalty? I'm not sure. And even if it did, I don't think many people in this kind of poll would be put off Botham as a result. For one thing, it's not a very well-known matter, and for another all that it involves is disloyalty to people who were themselves selling out in what's generally seen as quite a morally questionable way.
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
Very well, then.
Pulling out of the tour wasn't so much disloyalty, in my books; and neither was Botham the only one to do it. Given the variables in the decision, particularly for a superstar cricketer in his mid-twenties, I can appreciate that it was an enormously tricky decision. Bear in mind that Gooch and other youngsters faced a very realistic possibility of being banned for life when they signed up for 'the blood money'. It was a purely monetary decision and about weighing in the odds - on the part of those who signed and also those that didn't.
How Botham took advantage of this situation to sanctify his image was a hit below the belt, according to me. Not only was he being actively dishonest with himself and his 'rebel' mates, but also with his millions of adoring English fans.
Let's not forget the context we are speaking about. All these men (Botham and Gower included) had been actively planning the rebel tour while they were touring India in 1981/82. Secret meetings were held, usually in Willis' or someone's hotel room, and hard numbers were discussed. At one point, a figure of 150,000 GBP spread over three years was agreed upon with the accepted risk that none of them may ever play for England again. Sir Ian Terence Botham, among others, had raised toast to that offer before things fell apart.
With the advantage of hindsight, we may have a different take on the "morality" of the rebel tour. At that time, to these professional sportsmen, it was a financial choice and they believed they made no political statement - either to condone or condemn the racist regime - by playing their cricket. I am not judging Botham or anyone based on this incident. Just presenting a different perspective as to why some of his teammates (not CW forumers) may not think very highly of Beefy as a man.
smash84
The Tiger King
wow OSP.....great post....didn't know of this. Definitely don't mind the OT discussion if it adds so muchThe rebel tour to South Africa was organised in the early 80s with the full approval and collective cooperation of many English players. You'd appreciate that in a hush-hush affair like this, the 'all swim or all sink' mantra holds true.
As it stood twelve players participated - Boycott, Gooch, Emburey, John Lever, Underwood, Larkins, Amiss, Hendrick, Knott, Willey, Old and Taylor. Other English star players (Botham and Gower being the biggest) were in the reckoning but greater financial incentives back home persuaded them not to take the risk. While that was understandable in many ways (given the nature of difficulty of choice the men involved had to make), Botham's exit was rather unceremonius.
They were understood at that time as purely moneterial decisions and as basic etiquette, the men who had opted out were expected not to damn their colleagues - given that they were actively contemplating sailing in the same boat. In such a background, Ian Botham decided to ride a high horse by claiming that he had turned down the tour for "moral reasons".
Given the apartheid situation in Zuid Afrika, Beefy's explanation was that he "would never have been able to look Viv Richards in the eye again" had he made that tour. This comment, given Botham's active involvement through all stages of the rebel tour, did not go down well with his rebel colleagues.
An extract from Boycott's autobiography:
General NOTE to mods and others: This is clearly an off-topic post intended to clarify a point. If anyone has an opinion on this subject, please feel free to send a VM to me. We don't want this thread to head a different course.
smash84
The Tiger King
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Didn't know about this. But I know Botham once ran his non-striker Boycott out intentionally, and then came out in the open making fun of how he did that - such a tool!The rebel tour to South Africa was organised in the early 80s with the full approval and collective cooperation of many English players. You'd appreciate that in a hush-hush affair like this, the 'all swim or all sink' mantra holds true.
As it stood twelve players participated - Boycott, Gooch, Emburey, John Lever, Underwood, Larkins, Amiss, Hendrick, Knott, Willey, Old and Taylor. Other English star players (Botham and Gower being the biggest) were in the reckoning but greater financial incentives back home persuaded them not to take the risk. While that was understandable in many ways (given the nature of difficulty of choice the men involved had to make), Botham's exit was rather unceremonius.
They were understood at that time as purely moneterial decisions and as basic etiquette, the men who had opted out were expected not to damn their colleagues - given that they were actively contemplating sailing in the same boat. In such a background, Ian Botham decided to ride a high horse by claiming that he had turned down the tour for "moral reasons".
Given the apartheid situation in Zuid Afrika, Beefy's explanation was that he "would never have been able to look Viv Richards in the eye again" had he made that tour. This comment, given Botham's active involvement through all stages of the rebel tour, did not go down well with his rebel colleagues.
An extract from Boycott's autobiography:
General NOTE to mods and others: This is clearly an off-topic post intended to clarify a point. If anyone has an opinion on this subject, please feel free to send a VM to me. We don't want this thread to head a different course.
