Wasim Akram vs. Waqar Younis vs. Imran Khan

[zaremba]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you're going to use absurd PEWS constructs like a 'Mars XI' (please don't hurt me PEWS ), then be accurate all the way through. Mars XI's play on reddish dustbowls, which means the Earth XI would need to be packed with spinners, not quicks.

I've wondered for some time about the ideal players for an away match v Mars.

The dust would indeed tend to help the spinners. However, spinners, and particularly spinners from the sub-continent prone to seeking excuses, might struggle to grip the ball in the chilly temperatures (averaging -10C in daytime).

The thin atmosphere means that you can forget about swing, but out-and-out pace would be effective - the ball would really whizz through.

However the low gravity would exaggerate the bounce - tall bowlers may have to bowl a very full length or risk watching every ball sailing over the stumps.

Ultimately I think you want short, quick bowlers who are not reliant on swing, preferably from northern climes. Someone like Harold Larwood.

 

[smash84]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you're going to use absurd PEWS constructs like a 'Mars XI' (please don't hurt me PEWS ), then be accurate all the way through. Mars XI's play on reddish dustbowls, which means the Earth XI would need to be packed with spinners, not quicks.

Emm No. I think Wasim, Waqar, and Imran's record in the SC is better than many of the spinners if not most (Murali is one who comes to mind whose SC record is better than Imran's and that too marginally I think. Cbf looking it up).

 

[G.I.Joe]

Emm No. I think Wasim, Waqar, and Imran's record in the SC is better than many of the spinners if not most (Murali is one who comes to mind whose SC record is better than Imran's and that too marginally I think. Cbf looking it up).

What does the sub-continent have to do with dust bowls? They're not equivalent terms.

And far be it for me to kick up a **** storm, but I'll say home umpires had a huge say in Imran's home record. There's also Miandad, who, if memory serves right, was never given out lbw in a home test.

 

[Howe_zat]

What does the sub-continent have to do with dust bowls? They're not equivalent terms.

And far be it for me to kick up a **** storm, but I'll say home umpires had a huge say in Imran's home record. There's also Miandad, who, if memory serves right, was never given out lbw in a home test.

The bolded part is a myth - he was given out quite a few times, it was just a while before it happened. (edit: eight. Still few enough for us to reasonably say he probably had the umpires on his side, but it's not really much evidence.)

In general though, yeah, Imran and other Pakistanis of his generation got a fair bit of help. Imran himself has recognised it, he's referred to Pakistani umpires of the time semi-seriously as "patriots."

 

[smash84]

What does the sub-continent have to do with dust bowls? They're not equivalent terms.

And far be it for me to kick up a **** storm, but I'll say home umpires had a huge say in Imran's home record. There's also Miandad, who, if memory serves right, was never given out lbw in a home test.

Regarding Miandad, it is a myth.

Edit: beaten to it by Jake.

Home umpires may have helped Imran to some degree but that was happening everywhere (somewhere more and somewhere less) so it pretty much cancels out. Also Imran has a fair percentage of batsmen out bowled. The umpire can't get the batsmen to be bowled out. The same goes for Wasim and Waqar.

And the point is that if these guys can do a better job of getting wickets on dust bowls than your average spinner then I don't see why there is a need for packing the side with spinners?

 

[Furball]

Regarding Miandad, it is a myth.

Edit: beaten to it by Jake.

Home umpires may have helped Imran to some degree but that was happening everywhere (somewhere more and somewhere less) so it pretty much cancels out. Also Imran has a fair percentage of batsmen out bowled. The umpire can't get the batsmen to be bowled out. The same goes for Wasim and Waqar.

And the point is that if these guys can do a better job of getting wickets on dust bowls than your average spinner then I don't see why there is a need for packing the side with spinners?

Not every subcontinental wicket would have been a dustbowl. That's a lazy generalisation.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Regarding Miandad, it is a myth.

Edit: beaten to it by Jake.

Home umpires may have helped Imran to some degree but that was happening everywhere (somewhere more and somewhere less) so it pretty much cancels out. Also Imran has a fair percentage of batsmen out bowled. The umpire can't get the batsmen to be bowled out. The same goes for Wasim and Waqar.

And the point is that if these guys can do a better job of getting wickets on dust bowls than your average spinner then I don't see why there is a need for packing the side with spinners?

I don't think it was happening everywhere to the same extent. From most accounts, it was rampant in Pakistan. There's been mention of some degree of favouritism towards Hadlee in New Zealand. That the umpire can't help a bowler with wickets that are bowled is a given. It does not bear mention. There exist other modes of dismissal.

Besides, what's your basis for claiming that these players could do a better job of picking wickets on dustbowls than the average spinner. Once again, the sub continent is not equivalent to dustbowls. The latter is a sub-set of the former. And even if they were the same, it's an irrelevant point to compare them with the average spinner, because when it comes to all time XIs, we're talking about the greatest spinners to have ever played the game.

 

[smash84]

I don't think it was happening everywhere to the same extent. From most accounts, it was rampant in Pakistan. There's been mention of some degree of favouritism towards Hadlee in New Zealand. That the umpire can't help a bowler with wickets that are bowled is a given. It does not bear mention. There exist other modes of dismissal.
.

It may not have been happening to the same extent everywhere but it was happening and there is no sure way to quantify it. Saying that Imran's home record is good due mainly because of home umpiring seems quite poor form really. Even without the home umpires Imran did quite well.

Besides, what's your basis for claiming that these players could do a better job of picking wickets on dustbowls than the average spinner. Once again, the sub continent is not equivalent to dustbowls. The latter is a sub-set of the former. And even if they were the same, it's an irrelevant point to compare them with the average spinner, because when it comes to all time XIs, we're talking about the greatest spinners to have ever played the game.

Ok, then compare the performance of these guys to the best spinners on dust bowls. Lots of SC wickets are dust bowls. Hardly any green tops around. You will still need fast bowlers to open with the new ball (unless you want to open with a spinner and have no fast bowlers in your team which is what you may mean by packing your team with spinners).

 

[G.I.Joe]

It may not have been happening to the same extent everywhere but it was happening and there is no sure way to quantify it. Saying that Imran's home record is good due mainly because of home umpiring seems quite poor form really. Even without the home umpires Imran did quite well.

I have nothing to add that wouldn't be a repetition of what's already been said, smali. People are intelligent enough to make up their minds.

Ok, then compare the performance of these guys to the best spinners on dust bowls. Lots of SC wickets are dust bowls. Hardly any green tops around. You will still need fast bowlers to open with the new ball (unless you want to open with a spinner and have no fast bowlers in your team which is what you may mean by packing your team with spinners).

Do it, smiley. Without the generalisation. I'm not about to go waste an evening

 

[Furball]

It may not have been happening to the same extent everywhere but it was happening and there is no sure way to quantify it. Saying that Imran's home record is good due mainly because of home umpiring seems quite poor form really. Even without the home umpires Imran did quite well.



Ok, then compare the performance of these guys to the best spinners on dust bowls. Lots of SC wickets are dust bowls. Hardly any green tops around. You will still need fast bowlers to open with the new ball (unless you want to open with a spinner and have no fast bowlers in your team which is what you may mean by packing your team with spinners).

Good luck defining a dust bowl unless you've got footage of every single Test match Imran played.

 

[smash84]

I have nothing to add that wouldn't be a repetition of what's already been said, smali. People are intelligent enough to make up their minds.

Yeah but you make it sound like it had a significant difference to his stats (which IMO it didn't). So yeah your throwing around such statements is disingenuous to say the least.

Do it, smiley. Without the generalisation. I'm not about to go waste an evening

Neither am I

Good luck defining a dust bowl unless you've got footage of every single Test match Imran played.

I am content to treat SC pitches as generally dust bowls

 

[Teja.]

I've wondered for some time about the ideal players for an away match v Mars.

The dust would indeed tend to help the spinners. However, spinners, and particularly spinners from the sub-continent prone to seeking excuses, might struggle to grip the ball in the chilly temperatures (averaging -10C in daytime).

The thin atmosphere means that you can forget about swing, but out-and-out pace would be effective - the ball would really whizz through.

However the low gravity would exaggerate the bounce - tall bowlers may have to bowl a very full length or risk watching every ball sailing over the stumps.

Ultimately I think you want short, quick bowlers who are not reliant on swing, preferably from northern climes. Someone like Harold Larwood.

Wonderful, sire.

 

[Himannv]

Had multiple paragraphs written about how great Wasim Akram was but lost it all. Wont even attempt to recreate them but will say that Wasim Akram may not have been the perfect bowler in a variety of ways but on his day he did things that no other bowler alive could do. Love how he can make the ball talk and swing pretty much to his will. He will always be the greatest left arm pacer of all time for me and the best fast bowler the sub continet has ever produced.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think it was happening everywhere to the same extent. From most accounts, it was rampant in Pakistan. There's been mention of some degree of favouritism towards Hadlee in New Zealand. That the umpire can't help a bowler with wickets that are bowled is a given. It does not bear mention. There exist other modes of dismissal.
.

I recall one series in NZ when the umpiring was so bad that the WI bowlers stopped appealing, or so I read.

Pakistan had multiple complaints about umpiring every time they toured England.

I think there may be a bit of irony to take home umpiring points off the one player who actually first called for and instituted neutral umpires (and still bowled succesfully).

 

[kyear2]

Yeah but you make it sound like it had a significant difference to his stats (which IMO it didn't). So yeah your throwing around such statements is disingenuous to say the least.



Neither am I



I am content to treat SC pitches as generally dust bowls

home 1976-1992 38 59 7673 3131 163 8/58 14/116 19.20 2.44 47.0 10 3
away 1971-1990 50 83 11785 5127 199 7/40 12/165 25.76 2.61 59.2 13 3

To say that there is no difference in stats there is disingenuous. There is a difference, additionally neutral umpires were first used in Pakistan in 1986, Miandad started playing in 1975, the first time he was given out LBW at home was 1985. Thats almost 10 years and just before the neutral umpire idea was tried.
No one can seriously say that Pakistan playing at home didnt have somewhat of an advantage and in the instance of some players quite a large one.

 

[smash84]

Had multiple paragraphs written about how great Wasim Akram was but lost it all. Wont even attempt to recreate them but will say that Wasim Akram may not have been the perfect bowler in a variety of ways but on his day he did things that no other bowler alive could do. Love how he can make the ball talk and swing pretty much to his will. He will always be the greatest left arm pacer of all time for me and the best fast bowler the sub continet has ever produced.

He is arguably the most exciting bowler ever to watch that is all that I can say from this.

home 1976-1992 38 59 7673 3131 163 8/58 14/116 19.20 2.44 47.0 10 3
away 1971-1990 50 83 11785 5127 199 7/40 12/165 25.76 2.61 59.2 13 3

To say that there is no difference in stats there is disingenuous. There is a difference, additionally neutral umpires were first used in Pakistan in 1986, Miandad started playing in 1975, the first time he was given out LBW at home was 1985. Thats almost 10 years and just before the neutral umpire idea was tried.
No one can seriously say that Pakistan playing at home didnt have somewhat of an advantage and in the instance of some players quite a large one.

Ugh......what a ridiculous inference.

Murali has a home average of 19.56 and an away average of 27.79 so Murali must have been helped by his home umpires. That is the only thing that explains the difference in bowling average

 

[subshakerz]

home 1976-1992 38 59 7673 3131 163 8/58 14/116 19.20 2.44 47.0 10 3
away 1971-1990 50 83 11785 5127 199 7/40 12/165 25.76 2.61 59.2 13 3

To say that there is no difference in stats there is disingenuous. There is a difference, additionally neutral umpires were first used in Pakistan in 1986, Miandad started playing in 1975, the first time he was given out LBW at home was 1985. Thats almost 10 years and just before the neutral umpire idea was tried.
No one can seriously say that Pakistan playing at home didnt have somewhat of an advantage and in the instance of some players quite a large one.

I think you find an even greater difference between home and away in the records of Kapil Dev and Srinath. So perhaps the Indians should be docked as well?

The fact is that all bowlers of that period had a home advantage, there's no point denying it. Trying to quantify it somehow is a pointless exercise.

By the way, an away average of 25 in an era when there is no Zimbabwe and Bangladesh is still pretty impressive.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I recall one series in NZ when the umpiring was so bad that the WI bowlers stopped appealing, or so I read.

Pakistan had multiple complaints about umpiring every time they toured England.

I think there may be a bit of irony to take home umpiring points off the one player who actually first called for and instituted neutral umpires (and still bowled succesfully).

It might be ironic, but that doesn't affect the argument that he might have benefited from generous home umpiring.

 

[Furball]

He is arguably the most exciting bowler ever to watch that is all that I can say from this.



Ugh......what a ridiculous inference.

Murali has a home average of 19.56 and an away average of 27.79 so Murali must have been helped by his home umpires. That is the only thing that explains the difference in bowling average

Jesus Christ.

 

[BlazeDragon]

By the way, an away average of 25 in an era when there is no Zimbabwe and Bangladesh is still pretty impressive.

You might wanna talk about how bowler friendly that era is if you wanna bring that kind of stuff. Besides, Sri Lanka were the minnows back then.