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****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Don't you think, given the way Lara was playing at the end of his Test career, that he could have played for some time longer and done extremely well? That would suggest that his retirement was not triggered by decline in his quality as a batsman.
But then so could have Mcgrath and Warne ,but they did not and obviously you have to take what has happened over what could have presumptions.
Also he didn't have such a great last year despite playing one very good knock in Pakistan in his last tour tbf.

Also as i said ,it shouldn't impact how you rate Lara but these years would certainly affect Tendulkar's ratings and hence indirectly the comparison.
The fact that Lara retired doesn't stop Tendulkar from pulling away though it does not surely affect Lara's rating, like it did not affect Lara improving his rating and scoring runs galore when Tendulkar had his problems with Tennis elbow and injuries whether it affected Tendulkar's rating or not.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
But then so could have Mcgrath and Warne ,but they did not and obviously you have to take what has happened over what could have presumptions.
Also he didn't have such a great last year despite playing one very good knock in Pakistan in his last tour tbf.

Also as i said ,it shouldn't impact how you rate Lara but these years would certainly affect Tendulkar's ratings and hence indirectly the comparison.
The fact that Lara retired doesn't stop Tendulkar from pulling away though it does not surely affect Lara's rating, like it did not affect Lara improving his rating and scoring runs galore when Tendulkar had his problems with Tennis elbow and injuries whether it affected Tendulkar's rating or not.
While I agree that Sachin's recent run should impact on how he is viewed overall and in comparisons, I still think retirning is totally different from playing with injuries. Doing the latter (as Lara did 98 to 2002 and Sachin did 2002 to 2004) is always going to tarnish your legacy.
 

hang on

State Vice-Captain
And for all those mentioning about Sachin's Tennis Elbow, Lara had his chipped elbow bone problem from 1998 from which he only fully recovered circa 2002,
yes, completely agree. injuries etc. apply to all players. fit enough to be picked, fit enough to have it count!
 

Bun

Banned
This may be a dumb question, but why bother debating longevity at all?

Forget "Tendulkar played for an extra 5 years" or "Lara played McGrath better" or whatever the debates are, and look at the overall stats for the common period of time they were playing, to compare their relative quality against each other.

Tendulkar isn't better by virtue of scoring more runs off McGrath, nor is Lara better because he dominated Murali (examples, not statistical fact). It doesn't matter who they were against, it was whether they could get the job done for their team.

Looking at the time they both played International cricket simultaneously, the stats look like this.

Tendulkar has the edge in average (however he does have more not outs - make of it what you will), but both have the same number of centuries.

Lara's average per innings: 51.52
Tendulkar's: 50.67

Ostensibly, this analysis isn't perfect either - who knows how many more runs they would have scored before they got out, but managing the tail to eke every run out is a skill in itself.

Anyway, we can throw stats around however much we want, but when it boils down to it, its purely subjective. Personally, I rate them as equals - which is more or less what the stats tend to show too. They had different styles, but both were equally good at getting the job done over the same period of time.


Longevity =/= a better player IMO.


On a completely unrelated note, those stats show just how prolific Marcus Trescothick was - the first man to debut post-2000 to make the list, ahead of Sanga, Sarwan, Gayle and Sehwag
why should Sachin be penalised for performing well post Lara's retirement?

And lol @ excluding notouts in tests!!! 8-)

If you really want to literally compare how Sachin and lara did when they played cricket simultaneously,

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...nvolve_type=all;template=results;type=batting
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
While I agree that Sachin's recent run should impact on how he is viewed overall and in comparisons, I still think retirning is totally different from playing with injuries. Doing the latter (as Lara did 98 to 2002 and Sachin did 2002 to 2004) is always going to tarnish your legacy.
How is retiring different though?

Actually doing something and presuming something could be done or could have been done are completely different things.
Being at the top and carrying on at such a high level is not easy at that age.

All of Lara ,Mcgrath and Warne do not get much presumptive credit from me for what they could have done had they not retired because ultimately they did and there is no certain way of telling either way.
While say someone like Shane Bond gets often credited on here because of injuries ,though i don't agree with that fully too.
 
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Dan

Hall of Fame Member
why should Sachin be penalised for performing well post Lara's retirement?

And lol @ excluding notouts in tests!!! 8-)

If you really want to literally compare how Sachin and lara did when they played cricket simultaneously,

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...nvolve_type=all;template=results;type=batting
Not penalising Sachin for performing post-Lara at all, I'm comparing them against the same attacks (because scoring against 'lesser' bowlers is equally important as hitting Ambrose around the park IMO) over the same period of time. We don't know how Lara would have performed after his retirement, so I'm trying to level the playing field slightly by taking longevity out of the equation.

Fair enough on the excluding not-outs part, but honestly I don't see much difference between being the 10th wicket to fall and being left not out. Personal preference, and in reality is changes the averages by a couple of runs here and there. I'm not sure if statsguru can discriminate based on which wicket they were to fall, but if we count not outs and being the last man out the same, it might be a fairer comparison. Point conceded.

And it wasn't meant literally, you knew exactly what I was saying and intentionally took it out of context.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
About Sachin not having enough contests against McGrath.. I am saying it is true for Lara too. And for all those mentioning about Sachin's Tennis Elbow, Lara had his chipped elbow bone problem from 1998 from which he only fully recovered circa 2002, IIRC.. As I said, all these stats picking, like what the posters like cevno, bun, coolxxx (the new guy who rates Lara > Sachin) is essentially driving home the same point. You can pick and choose the stats that make your guy look better and argue that is what is more important in cricket.

For me, all those things even out.
:wacko:
Pot Kettle black ,Glass houses stones etc.. etc...
 

shankar

International Debutant
About Sachin not having enough contests against McGrath.. I am saying it is true for Lara too.
The comparison is with Sachin - both have played the same amount against Donald.

And for all those mentioning about Sachin's Tennis Elbow, Lara had his chipped elbow bone problem from 1998 from which he only fully recovered circa 2002, IIRC..
You haven't read my post properly. I'm not talking about playing with some injury or other. He was out of cricket for a couple of months, regained enough strength to use his bat 3 days before the test on THAT Nagpur wicket.

Anyway, that part of my post had nothing to do with the comparison to Lara. It was about Tendulkar's average against McGrath
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
How is retiring different though?

Actually doing something and presuming something could be done or could have been done are completely different things.
Being at the top and carrying on at such a high level is not easy at that age.

All of Lara ,Mcgrath and Warne do not get much presumptive credit from me for what they could have done had they not retired because ultimately they did and there is no certain way of telling either way.
While say someone like Shane Bond gets often credited on here because of injuries ,though i don't agree with that fully too.
Lara actually retired when he was 38, which Sachin is, now.. :)


So the age thing is again cancelled out. And I never said Sachin's longevity didn't matter. You are preaching to the choir. I have already stated in various threads in this forum that this recent post WC 2007 run of Sachin has me rating him even closer to Lara as a test batsman than earlier and also compartively with other batsmen.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The comparison is with Sachin - both have played the same amount against Donald.


You haven't read my post properly. I'm not talking about playing with some injury or other. He was out of cricket for a couple of months, regained enough strength to use his bat 3 days before the test on THAT Nagpur wicket.

Anyway, that part of my post had nothing to do with the comparison to Lara. It was about Tendulkar's average against McGrath
Nah.. those points were to people who mention Sachin's injury and yet ignore Lara's. Not to you. I just clubbed it with my reply to your post. Apologies. :)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
:wacko:
Pot Kettle black ,Glass houses stones etc.. etc...
Jeez man, all I said was you guys were posting stats needlessly. It has all been done before and it is a point to why these two are so good and so close to each other that inspite of all that, we are finding instances using statsguru to say one is better than the other as much as the other side. Talk about over-reaction.


Also point out where exactly I mentioned stats here in my recent contributions to this thread.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The comparison is with Sachin - both have played the same amount against Donald.


You haven't read my post properly. I'm not talking about playing with some injury or other. He was out of cricket for a couple of months, regained enough strength to use his bat 3 days before the test on THAT Nagpur wicket.

Anyway, that part of my post had nothing to do with the comparison to Lara. It was about Tendulkar's average against McGrath
Well then the McGrath-Sachin point applies to all 3 contests then :)


The sample sizes for Donald/Lara, Sachin/Donald and McGrath/Sachin are all small, but the point is you can't take one while ignoring the other. That is all.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Agreed. But sample sizes are always going to be small when you use any such filtration system. Several people often use "performances against Australia in mid-late 90s" or "performances against the Windies in 80s" to rate players. Sample sizes even in those cases were extremely small. Nevertheless, 50 innings for Tendulkar (and 80 innings for Lara) is a decent sized sample, considering the filtration. Even if Tendulkar had scored 300* in his next innings or his next series against any of these bowlers (McGrath/Donald/Akram) , he would still not average as high as Lara did against them. On a side note though, it seems interesting that Tendulkar does not have a single not-out in any of his 50 innings against these bowlers.

Great batsmen make avail of whatever few opportunities that they get. How many Test series against genuinely great pace attacks did Vivian Richards play in his career? As far as I have seen, very few. Couple of series in Aus in the 70s and a few series against Pak in the 80s. Not very many. Certainly less than 50 innings over-all. This doesn't mean that the other attacks he faced in his career were dud. They were good attacks too. But these attacks were better than good. He failed more often against them than he succeeded. And yet, he made use of a couple of these series with God-like performance against Pak in 80-81 or even 88-89 where he totally stood out even amongst his illustrous peers. Same thing with AB's away-performance against the Windies in the early 80s. Lara did the same in the 98-99 and 02-03 series against McGrath.

The "God-like" series that Lara had against McGrath is actually the main point here. That wasn't the only one. Lara was absolutely phenomenal even in the 2002-03 series against Aus. It is the complete absence of such a stand-out, stellar series (for Tendulkar) against this cream-level of fast bowlers of his era that puts Lara higher in my opinion. Having at least one such stand-out, stellar series against such attacks where even good batsmen struggle carries tremendous weight (in my eyes). Again this is just my opinion or my taste if you will. Not trying to convince anyone else here, that is impossible.

This doesn't mean other factors like longevity or consistency against less-than-great pace attacks etc, need to be thrown out of the window. It isn't binary here. Other factors matter too. It really depends on who gives how much weightage to what. Especially at this level of batsmanship. It isn't as if Lara was successful for only 3 years or that he fared far worse than Tendulkar against other attacks (when these bowlers were absent). There is no absolute right/wrong about it. It is subjective. To me, having such a stand-out series against a great attack is vital.

I am not using these stats as a basis to judge Lara as better/greater than Tendulkar. Not at all. I don't have to. I am totally relying on what I remember seeing. Although I did not follow Tendulkar or Lara's career in great detail (not a big fan of batsmen, am a huge fan of watching quality fast bowling irrespective of the team), but I have seen plenty and plenty of batting against quality fast bowling (including both these guys).

I found both of them to be more vulnerable against quality pace. Between the two, I generally observed Lara to be relatively more dominant and more consistent (runs-wise) against these great fast bowling attacks - or rather what I define as great fast bowling attacks - that they both came up against. His peaks, against these attacks, were IMO far more towering than Tendulkar's. And ultimately that is what matters to me.

If anything, it is the other way around with the stats. I am just using these stats to confirm for myself that my observation that Lara did indeed perform better than Tendulkar (at least what I consider as "better") against McGrath/Donald/Akram led attacks (or those attacks that I saw to be genuinely challenging attacks that they both faced) isn't untrue.

Yes, to be fair, Wasim has to be removed from the list since Tendulkar was 16 years old in his first series (against Wasim) and Lara also had his debut Test where he made 44 and 5 against Wasim. But removing Wasim really does not change things much. If anything, it further accentuates the gap between the two as Lara was clearly better (again, better in my opinion) than Tendulkar against both McGrath and Donald. Adding Wasim actually brings them a bit closer.
Regarding why I did not use Ambrose to boost Tendulkar. Inclusion of Ambrose doesn't matter at all statistically. Even including Ambrose and removing Wasim, Tendulkar's average against (McGrath/Donald/Ambrose) still stays well below 40 (1609 runs at an average of 37.4 in 44 innings), and still well behind Lara (2722 runs at 42.53 in 66 innings).

Irrespective of the above stat, I am totally going by what I have seen of both Lara and Tendulkar against quality pace. I am not going by paper scorecards here. I saw the entire 1997 series where Tendulkar faced Ambrose. I believe this was the only Test series when they faced each other. The series was a huge let-down. It was one of the most boring series that I was fooled in to following (because of the names of the fast bowlers involved). On paper, it might have looked like the Indians were put up against a great fast bowling attack with Ambrose, Watsh etc. under tough conditions on away wickets. But there was absolutely nothing in those wickets for fast bowlers. Pitches were deader than dead. They were more life-less than subcontinental wickets. Barbados was the only wicket that offered some salvation (for fast bowling fans). Weather was bad too.

It is not surprising that 4 of the 5 Tests in that series ended in dull draws. It is also not surprising that several other Indian batsmen (Navjot Sidhu, Ajay Jadeja) made merry in that series.

Again, I am not saying this to diss Tendulkar's (or Dravid's or Sidhu's) acheivements in that series. This doesn't mean that their knocks in that series came up against attacks of Kenya or Holland. Let us not jump between extremes here. From what I have seen, the 1997 series of Ambrose against Tendulkar did not appear to be a great example of Tendulkar having a stellar series against great fast bowling in tough conditions (to my eyes at least). His 92 at Barbados was a great knock though, as was Dravid's 70+. In fact, IMO Tendulkar's 100 against England at Edgbaston in 1996 came under tougher conditions despite the lack of big fast bowling names than any of his knocks against Ambrose. Similarly, Sidhu's 116 at Jamaica against almost exactly the same West Indian bowlers about 10 years earlier, was a much tougher knock IMO than his double century against Ambrose in the 1997 series.

You can freely include Ambrose, doesn't really change the over-all picture IMO.

It is sad to see some posters emotionally reacting, much like those that comment on youtube videos as if everyone who doesn't worship Tendulkar as they do have an agenda against him. Although I am aware of most Tendulkar fans being hyper-sensitive and pretty radical in their worship of their idol, I was hoping there would be less of such immature people in this forum.

Nice forum though, don't get me wrong. ignore list is a very handy feature.

I have nothing against Tendulkar, and rating Lara above Tendulkar doesn't mean that in my mind Tendulkar is a Devon Malcolm or a Courtney Walsh with the bat. What both of them acheived is for everyone to see. However, when it comes to this level of comparison, IMO, it really becomes subjective.

To me, Tendulkar is behind Lara. And both of them behind Vivian Richards, Barry Richards and Greg Chappell (from the batsmen that I have seen). Again, this is just my opinion based on what I have seen. It isn't the absolute truth. I don't think an absolute truth exists at this level of comparison.
Nah, I don't use nitpickstats alone to form my conclusion on these batsmen.

And well, I am fully aware how brilliant a batsman Lara was. Yeah, I'd be as torn if there were two channels showing a Lara special and a Tendulkar special at the same time. But having said that, Tendulkar overwhelms Lara when it comes to discipline, a much underrated quality (precisely why I rate McGrath above all pacers, including Marshall)
CoolTuna you write quite well and the fact that you have followed both of their careers gives you the right to have an opinion to rate one or the other as the better of the two. As HB mentions that the two are so close that you may choose any one over the other.

Secondly which fast bowlers do you rate as the best that you have seen over the years?
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
You're not getting it, Got_Spin. It isn't the only factor why some people consider Tendulkar to be the superior batsman.
That's not the point either. Saying you rate one player over another for whatever reasons is fine and dandy but extending that to suggest there's no point to any further debate is another thing entirely. The objective angle (sports stats) are flawed and incomplete. The subjective angle is, well, subjective. Anyone claiming a definitive position is in lala land.
 

Bun

Banned
Not penalising Sachin for performing post-Lara at all, I'm comparing them against the same attacks (because scoring against 'lesser' bowlers is equally important as hitting Ambrose around the park IMO) over the same period of time. We don't know how Lara would have performed after his retirement, so I'm trying to level the playing field slightly by taking longevity out of the equation.

Fair enough on the excluding not-outs part, but honestly I don't see much difference between being the 10th wicket to fall and being left not out. Personal preference, and in reality is changes the averages by a couple of runs here and there. I'm not sure if statsguru can discriminate based on which wicket they were to fall, but if we count not outs and being the last man out the same, it might be a fairer comparison. Point conceded.

And it wasn't meant literally, you knew exactly what I was saying and intentionally took it out of context.
The bolded underlined part is unfortunately where your argument collapses. Why the need for "levelling the field" in the first place? And why take longetivity out of the equation when comparing these two batsmen? You say as if Lara was 'forced' to retire and Sachin somehow 'allowed' to play on for these additional years. Longetivity is every bit a manifestation of a player's discipline. And discipline is what makes a champion out of a merely skilled person.

Such kind of "exclusions" leave a sour taste in the mouth because it kind of rubbishes what Tendulkar did in the last 4 years, as if it never happened at all. What Tendulkar did in the last 4 years is every bit as important as whet he did in the previous 17-18 years. Lara being around or not is irrelevant when comparing the careers of these two batsmen. Right now, it's like comparing 70% of Tendulkar to 100% of lara's career, which is just fail.

As to your not outs argument, not every notout is as a result of left stranded while the 10th wicket had fallen. :sleep:
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
Jeez man, all I said was you guys were posting stats needlessly. It has all been done before and it is a point to why these two are so good and so close to each other that inspite of all that, we are finding instances using statsguru to say one is better than the other as much as the other side. Talk about over-reaction.

Also point out where exactly I mentioned stats here in my recent contributions to this thread.
Over reaction?

First you posted this -
Soon we are going to have centurymaker and Cevno enter and turn this into a pissing contest.. :(
Before today i have like 6/7 posts in this thread and all pretty general comments if you care to check.

Then you posted the message about stats clubbing me with Bun and Coolkuna.
Where have i posted needless statistics ,care to explain like the ones against Wasim,Donald and Mcgrath etc... about which you have been talking all along?

The only statistic recently or otherwise (unlike you) i have posted in this thread is the 90's and since then breakup of Tendulkar's career with others to make my point about longevity.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The bolded underlined part is unfortunately where your argument collapses. Why the need for "levelling the field" in the first place? And why take longetivity out of the equation when comparing these two batsmen? You say as if Lara was 'forced' to retire and Sachin somehow 'allowed' to play on for these additional years. Longetivity is every bit a manifestation of a player's discipline. And discipline is what makes a champion out of a merely skilled person.

Such kind of "exclusions" leave a sour taste in the mouth because it kind of rubbishes what Tendulkar did in the last 4 years, as if it never happened at all. What Tendulkar did in the last 4 years is every bit as important as whet he did in the previous 17-18 years. Lara being around or not is irrelevant when comparing the careers of these two batsmen. Right now, it's like comparing 70% of Tendulkar to 100% of lara's career, which is just fail.

As to your not outs argument, not every notout is as a result of left stranded while the 10th wicket had fallen. :sleep:
but that is the only occassion when you can think the batsman has been robbed of an opportunity to bat on.. In other instances, teams only declare because that is the way they think they can get a win and generally, batsmen are well aware of the point of time around which the declaration would come. So it changes his mindset entirely, as well as fields being spread out etc. etc. There is just no definitive way to simply classify "not outs" as a category where a batsman was not allowed the opportunity to score more.. That is just not true.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Over reaction?

First you posted this -


Before today i have like 6/7 posts in this thread and all pretty general comments if you care to check.

Then you posted the message about stats clubbing me with Bun and Coolkuna.
Where have i posted needless statistics ,care to explain like the ones against Wasim,Donald and Mcgrath etc... about which you have been talking all along?

The only statistic recently or otherwise (unlike you) i have posted in this thread is the 90's and since then breakup of Tendulkar's career with others to make my point about longevity.
so you did post stats? so where is the problem what I said. And yes, I included you in the earlier post along with blokes like bun because that is how you post in Sachin threads. I am happy you are not doing that here, honestly and I have no intention to go down that road again. We both know each others position. So if me apologizing for including you in that post will settle this, then I will. I am sorry I named you in that post. My mistake. :)
 

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