Dhoni Vs Gilchrist in ODIs.

[Bun]

For batting wise, I have never really been that impressed by Dhoni and Gilly is in a totally different league, even at this current time btw.

 

[Spark]

Because my point was that averages are not necessarily a good representation of an ODI player's performances.

Simply because your Clarkes, Dhonis and Husseys often accumulate 40-50 runs with absolutely no risk at all (look at the number of 50s) to defensive fields, often against the weaker parts of the attack. It is not a completely fair representation of their utility to the team.

Now, I think that the gap is rapidly closing because I've seen Dhoni play some spectacular knocks but at this stage I just think that because of the way he dealt with the best bowlers when batting is at its most difficult was a more important contribution to the Australian team.

I would pick Dhoni as my keeper in an ATG side but that's a different question because they aren't on equal playing fields in that respect.

 

[Teja.]

Gilchrist's career has been longer. I'd wait for 3-4 more Dhoni years before making a call. As of right now, Gilchrist's the overall greater ODI cricketer.

I'd pick Dhoni in an AT XI though as it allows me to play Mark Waugh as opener.

 

[Bun]

I think it's a given that it's easier to bat during the middle overs of one day cricket. There is hardly any fielding pressure on, unless there's been a dramatic collapse at the top, and the fielding side take the opportunity to put the field back and get through as many overs as possible. It's a stage where there's an unspoken agreement between teams almost, 'you don't hit us for boundaries and we won't try and get you out'.

That's not to cheapen Dhoni's achievements or record, it's just a fact.

That's a faulty argument.

It's not as if Dhoni has to come in with 30 overs left and wickets galore to play at his own leisure.

Most of his best knocks have come under the pump, when chasing big totals, or when the wickets are down. India aren't blessed with absolutely brilliant players in the middle order.

Also you ignore the fact that in the subcontinent, it is easier to bat when the ball is new and hard, and the field restrictions are on. Further a middle order batsman like Dhoni, has almost always to slog from ball one comparing to an opener who always has some time to settle in before going for his shots.

Anyways, Dhoni averages in the 70s from positions 1-4. So that argument that he can't bat at the top is rendered redundant anyways.

Also to note is his average of 50 plus batting second, that's just brilliant.

 

[Jono]

Those saying its a no contest are kidding themselves. Again, I think Gilly is better but in 5 years time is when this debate should occur.

Dhoni has finished off so many matches that the "easier batting in the middle" argument is stupid. It may be easier to bat in the middle, but its not "easier" to win matches for your team.

 

[TumTum]

Seriously what does Dhoni have to do more to be considered better than Gilchrist in this format, i dunno.

Score more runs against difficult opposition in pressure matches. Gilly can demolish any attack anywhere anytime given it's his day, but whenever I've seen Dhoni he usually struggles against good pace bowling with his awkward technique.

 

[Spark]

Those saying its a no contest are kidding themselves. Again, I think Gilly is better but in 5 years time is when this debate should occur.

Dhoni has finished off so many matches that the "easier batting in the middle" argument is stupid. It may be easier to bat in the middle, but its not "easier" to win matches for your team.

FTR I was using that more to point out that the difference in averages shouldn't really be taken as representative.

Again, he's played some brilliant knocks to finish off innings... but so has Gilchrist to start them. We're not comparing two journeymen here.

 

[Bun]

Because my point was that averages are not necessarily a good representation of an ODI player's performances.

Simply because your Clarkes, Dhonis and Husseys often accumulate 40-50 runs with absolutely no risk at all (look at the number of 50s) to defensive fields, often against the weaker parts of the attack. It is not a completely fair representation of their utility to the team.

Now, I think that the gap is rapidly closing because I've seen Dhoni play some spectacular knocks but at this stage I just think that because of the way he dealt with the best bowlers when batting is at its most difficult was a more important contribution to the Australian team.

I would pick Dhoni as my keeper in an ATG side but that's a different question because they aren't on equal playing fields in that respect.

We aren't blindly talking about batting avgs ffs.

We are talking runs/innings, ie, I ignored the substantial not outs for Dhoni and still he gets more runs/innings than Gilly.

This argument can work both ways. Dhoni sometimes come in when there are only 10 overs to go and has to slog, thereby with a greater chance of losing his wicket as well. Not as if everytime he has come in with leisurely 30-40 overs to play himself in.

And if at all he has to come in with 30 overs to go, it invariably means his team is in danger as it would've lost many wickets than it should. So he has to play a different game altogether.

His SR is not Bevanesque, it is nearly 90!

 

[Bun]

Score more runs against difficult opposition in pressure matches. Gilly can demolish any attack anywhere anytime given it's his day, but whenever I've seen Dhoni he usually struggles against good pace bowling with his awkward technique.

What more pressure situation than a World Cup final chase?

Against likes of Malinga and Murali?

 

[benchmark00]

Those saying its a no contest are kidding themselves. Again, I think Gilly is better but in 5 years time is when this debate should occur.

Dhoni has finished off so many matches that the "easier batting in the middle" argument is stupid. It may be easier to bat in the middle, but its not "easier" to win matches for your team.

So getting the team off to an awesome start doesn't win matches for your team, only closing out games do??

 

[Jono]

FTR I was using that more to point out that the difference in averages shouldn't really be taken as representative.

Again, he's played some brilliant knocks to finish off innings... but so has Gilchrist to start them. We're not comparing two journeymen here.

Nah I know, my post was aimed at Benchy.

 

[benchmark00]

What more pressure situation than a World Cup final chase?

Against likes of Malinga and Murali?

Gilchrist made a WC final hundred you realise, against those players..?

 

[vcs]

That's true, but Michael Hussey averages 50+. Michael Clarke averages about 44. Is that a fair representation of their quality as ODI players?

Hussey yes, Clarke no.

Dhoni, Hussey and Bevan are gun middle-order batsmen because they are awesome finishers. The "inflated" average due to not outs is partly because of that.

 

[Jono]

So getting the team off to an awesome start doesn't win matches for your team, only closing out games do??

This is such a stupid post considering I bloody said Gilly was better.

Of course not.

 

[Spark]

Hussey yes, Clarke no.

Dhoni, Hussey and Bevan are gun middle-order batsmen because they are awesome finishers. The "inflated" average due to not outs is partly due to that.

50+ in ODIs is seriously pushing it. I mean if that's a fair representation of his quality then that's freakishly good. Granted, he has looked freakishly good at times in his ODI career.

 

[Top_Cat]

Gilchrist. But your team is only enahanced by a player like Dhoni in the line-up too so meh @ at the wheres and whyfors. Both valuable players, would just prefer to see Gilchurch in the side although it would depend a bit on the rest of the dicks in the line-up.

 

[benchmark00]

This is such a stupid post considering I bloody said Gilly was better.

Of course not.

Well why bring up the winning games argument? Which is completely moot because both players have done it, except Gilchrist does it when the ball is new and swinging and decking around.

 

[Jono]

Because you're the one suggesting making runs in the middle overs is worth nothing, when it actually wins teams matches as well.

You're saying they're miles apart as batsmen, which is just silly.

It's like saying Sachin and Bevan are miles apart.

 

[vcs]

50+ in ODIs is seriously pushing it. I mean if that's a fair representation of his quality then that's freakishly good. Granted, he has looked freakishly good at times in his ODI career.

I didn't mean it in the sense that I'd just take that average and say Hussey > Viv Richards/Ponting/Tendulkar. But again, that would be like comparing apples and oranges. The best players in that position are expected to finish games and accumulate a few more not outs in the process, and I think Hussey's average reflects how successfully he has done that.

 

[Jono]

If making runs in the middle overs and leading your team to victory was a piece of cake, more players would have records like Dhoni, Hussey and Bevan.