Most charismatic cricketer ever?

[Howe_zat]

Quality posting from vcs.

Ankitj, seriously, what country's media doesn't big up their players? And even if he was given more than his fair worth, isn't that as a result of charisma?

Plus, arguing against someone by implying you haven't watched them doesn't really put you in the best position to argue.

 

[ankitj]

I can't get what I said is so blasphemous. You can't criticize English media for a change? Did Flintoff tick enough boxes (said it multiple times without a direct response)? Did he ever look like becoming a great captain? Does he have a star status outside of England and Australia (unless we think those are the limits of international cricket)? I agree with VCS that I should not be limiting charisma to the those elite cricketers I mentioned earlier. But for me he didn't even do for cricket as much as Arjuna Ranatunga did for example. Not a great cricketer but played a pivotal role in his country's cricketing fortunes.

I can see people disagreeing with me, but why is my opinion being met almost with charges of blasphemy?

 

[Howe_zat]

Firstly, half my posts here have been criticising the media. So that's obviously not what I was saying. I was conceding that Flintoff is hyped up by the English media, but saying that's because every country has a media that will hype up their own players (or in Australia's case, amusingly, every state), especially the charismatic ones.

It's fine to have your opinion but people will take umbrage from the way you arrived at it. If you think he's just not done much for you then fair enough, but saying he isn't charismatic because you don't care about and/or haven't watched the majority of his performances seems a rather spurious reason to dismiss him.

Lastly, it's not "blasphemy charges" when people disagree with you. This is a discussion forum, if people disagree they will say so.

 

[vcs]

I can't get what I said is so blasphemous. You can't criticize English media for a change? Did Flintoff tick enough boxes (said it multiple times without a direct response)? Did he ever look like becoming a great captain? Does he have a star status outside of England and Australia (unless we think those are the limits of international cricket)? I agree with VCS that I should not be limiting charisma to the those elite cricketers I mentioned earlier. But for me he didn't even do for cricket as much as Arjuna Ranatunga did for example. Not a great cricketer but played a pivotal role in his country's cricketing fortunes.

I can see people disagreeing with me, but why is my opinion being met almost with charges of blasphemy?

There's not a lot to argue with what you've said there because it's mainly personal perception. But to many people, Flintoff did come across as an inspiring, and larger-than-life character. Obviously you disagree.

FTR, I was taking issue with your initial statement that he didn't do much outside the Ashes.

 

[smash84]

Viv Richards, Shane Warne, definitely right up there.

Have read a bit about Keith Miller and that he too had a lot of charisma

 

[weldone]

I can't get what I said is so blasphemous. You can't criticize English media for a change? Did Flintoff tick enough boxes (said it multiple times without a direct response)? Did he ever look like becoming a great captain? Does he have a star status outside of England and Australia (unless we think those are the limits of international cricket)? I agree with VCS that I should not be limiting charisma to the those elite cricketers I mentioned earlier. But for me he didn't even do for cricket as much as Arjuna Ranatunga did for example. Not a great cricketer but played a pivotal role in his country's cricketing fortunes.

I can see people disagreeing with me, but why is my opinion being met almost with charges of blasphemy?

I personally like your point very much.

Forget about star status outside England and partly Australia (although I'm not sure about the second one, either), I don't think other cricketing nations ever bothered too much about about him when playing against England.

And if star status in your own country is good enough for charisma then Ranatunga (and the likes of Ganguly) tops Flintoff by every account. Flintoff's contribution to his country's cricket was less than Ranatunga's contribution to his.

On a slightly different note, I remember PEWS once compared Hussey and Samaraweera. His point was that if both players can't play well away, and both are very good at home (and have similar records overall) then why should Hussey be considered a better batsman than Samaraweera? Because he's allowed to play in the Ashes (read 'armageddon')?

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Hansie Cronje:...

Well, maybe not now...

That's the beauty of opinions, right? We may disagree but we still may be right in our own spheres. A lot of people find Flintoff and Warne charismatic. I don't. You may not find Cronje charismatic and that's perfectly fine.

So ultimately, I think it boils down to personal tastes and what an individual finds inspirational. The world would be a boring place if we all had the same viewpoints. Peace out!

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

Ashes ≠ Cricket.

Ashes=War.

Sums up what I was saying about the beauty of having different opinions. It would suffice to say that a player's charisma is a highly personal evaluation and there'd be surprising choices galore!

 

[Jono]

Nah G_S, I reckon another IPL is the way to go, but make it a bit longer, this one's been far too short.

Considering Ankit is a huge critic of the IPL, this is a bit unfair.

 

[Ikki]

There's not a lot to argue with what you've said there because it's mainly personal perception. But to many people, Flintoff did come across as an inspiring, and larger-than-life character. Obviously you disagree.

FTR, I was taking issue with your initial statement that he didn't do much outside the Ashes.

The **** was English and I still couldn't hate him. That's as charismatic as it gets for me. Loved his answer to Atherton at the end of his last Ashes why he didn't have more 5fers. He said something like "well, I am not that good of a bowler Aggers" - which kind of encapsulates why people like him so much.

I can see how being an ATG cricketer can help your charisma, but it's not a causative link ankit.

 

[Borges]

Flintoff not even in my top 50 charismatic cricketers. Ashes ≠ Cricket.

Agree with the above.

Though, if it was a list of most lovable cricketers, Flintoff would be there in my list.


And let us now have some more snide comments of this variety. How dare they have an opinion different from the one I hold so strongly? Makes this a really fun place to be in.

Can't wait for the next India v. Sri Lanka ODI series. That'll bring the entertainment

Nah G_S, I reckon another IPL is the way to go, but make it a bit longer, this one's been far too short.

 

[smash84]

yeah never thought of Freddie as charismatic myself........but then is quite subjective to a very high degree as oustswinger@pace mentions........

 

[ankitj]

Sums up what I was saying about the beauty of having different opinions. It would suffice to say that a player's charisma is a highly personal evaluation and there'd be surprising choices galore!

Lest someone misunderstands, I was not saying Ashes is not real cricket, but that Ashes is not all that is there to Cricket. Kinda obvious, but still.

 

[zaremba]

I can't get what I said is so blasphemous. You can't criticize English media for a change? Did Flintoff tick enough boxes (said it multiple times without a direct response)? Did he ever look like becoming a great captain? Does he have a star status outside of England and Australia (unless we think those are the limits of international cricket)? I agree with VCS that I should not be limiting charisma to the those elite cricketers I mentioned earlier. But for me he didn't even do for cricket as much as Arjuna Ranatunga did for example. Not a great cricketer but played a pivotal role in his country's cricketing fortunes.

I can see people disagreeing with me, but why is my opinion being met almost with charges of blasphemy?

I don't think you'll be met with charges of blasphemy but you are very much mistaking cricketing ability for charisma. I can see there's an overlap between the two, but they are very distinct things. Fred had (has) charisma by the bucketload, and to think that charisma is about how many 5-wicket hauls you take on pitch A as against pitch B, or how many times you captained your side to victory, really does miss the point.

 

[zaremba]

Flintoff's contribution to his country's cricket was less than Ranatunga's contribution to his.

Debatable, and moreover irrelevant

Contribution =/ charisma.

Darren Gough made less of a contribution to his country's cricket than Michael Vaughan. Relevance to a discussion about charisma? Nil.

 

[ankitj]

I don't think you'll be met with charges of blasphemy but you are very much mistaking cricketing ability for charisma. I can see there's an overlap between the two, but they are very distinct things. Fred had (has) charisma by the bucketload, and to think that charisma is about how many 5-wicket hauls you take on pitch A as against pitch B, or how many times you captained your side to victory, really does miss the point.

Don't think I missed the point. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Ranatunga. Basically, Flintoff may have been charismatic for English fans but if you ask cricket followers outside England (and possibly Australia), not many will tell you that Flintoff is a huge star or an inspiring cricketer.

 

[zaremba]

Don't think I missed the point. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned Ranatunga. Basically, Flintoff may have been charismatic for English fans but if you ask cricket followers outside England (and possibly Australia), not many will tell you that Flintoff is a huge star or an inspiring cricketer.

I'm sure you're better placed to judge that than I am. But if you're right I do wonder why Flintoff broke the record for the most expensive IPL signing in 2009. I suspect that marketability in India has something to do with it, and charisma has something to do with that.

 

[GotSpin]

I can't get what I said is so blasphemous. You can't criticize English media for a change? Did Flintoff tick enough boxes (said it multiple times without a direct response)? Did he ever look like becoming a great captain? Does he have a star status outside of England and Australia (unless we think those are the limits of international cricket)? I agree with VCS that I should not be limiting charisma to the those elite cricketers I mentioned earlier. But for me he didn't even do for cricket as much as Arjuna Ranatunga did for example. Not a great cricketer but played a pivotal role in his country's cricketing fortunes.

I can see people disagreeing with me, but why is my opinion being met almost with charges of blasphemy?

Ability and charisma aren't the same thing. There are no boxes to tick when it comes to defining the level of charisma that a particular player holds.

 

[GotSpin]

And let us now have some more snide comments of this variety. How dare they have an opinion different from the one I hold so strongly? Makes this a really fun place to be in.

Toughen up sweetheart

 

[GotSpin]

Nah G_S, I reckon another IPL is the way to go, but make it a bit longer, this one's been far too short.

I'd have to agree. Perhaps a window should be made for it. After all, it's for the players benefit right!!???