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*Official* Quarters/Semis/Final General Discussion
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Quaggas
State Captain
Yeah, SL in SL is unpleasant for mine.Winner of Eng/SL have a relatively easy ride into the finals imo.
Neither SA or NZ would scare anyone in a semi-final draw.
smash84
The Tiger King
Both these teams are now probably more talented than the ones in the 92 WC final.
Fusion
Global Moderator
Woa, hold on there pardner. That's a massive statement to make. I think both the '92 teams are comfortably superior to the current ones. I'm going to focus on Pakistan, because that's where my interest lies. If you compare position for position, the '92 Pakistan teams is superior in EVERY way to the 2011 version.
Openers:
Sohail and Raja >> any combo of the current openers.
Middler Order:
Javed, Inzi, Imran, Ijaz >>> Shafiq, Younis, Misbah, Akmal
WK:
Moin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Akmal
Pacers:
Wasim, Aaqib, Imran >>>Gul, Riaz, Razzaq
Spin:
Mushy, Sohail >= Afridi, Ajmal, Abdur
Add to that the intangible of Imran's captaincy, and it's not even close how much superior the '92 version is IMO.
salman85
International Debutant
England's team is definitley more superior to what they had in 1992.Coming to Pakistan :
Pacers
Wasim was not on his peak in the 1992 tournament,he went on to achieve that following the tournament.Plus he had a very ordinary tournament till the final stages.Gul has been more lethal than Wasim TBH.People tend to overlook Wasim's entire tournament simply because he was brilliant in the final.Imran the bowler was a spent force in 1992.The Aqib Javed of 1992 and the current Wahab Riaz of today are probably on the same level.But we didn't have an able backup like Shoaib AKhtar on the bench back then.We do now.So a pace attack of Shoaib,Razzaq,Gul and Wahab is better than a pace attack of Wasim,Imran and Aqib.I'm not going by the 1992 lot's potential.I'm going by what their performances were in the tournament.
Spin
Better than what we had in 1992.Mushtaq was not as lethal as Afridi has been in this tournament,whereas Rehman being the specialist bowler,is more capable than Sohail.Also,there is Ajmal.We didn't have such a strong spinner on the bench in 1992.
Middle Order
Hard to create a difference here.Javed was great in 1992.Misbah is playing the same role as him this time.There was a young Inzamam,now we have a young Umar Akmal.But Minus that,there was Ijaz in 1992,and he didnt do jack**** in the tournament.The same goes for Salim Malik.Imran did a good job as a batsman though,that too,towards the later part of the tournament.So :
Miandad in 1992 = Misbah in 2011
Inzi in 1992 = Umar in 2011
Which leaves us with Younis/Asad vs Malik/Ijaz.Younis/Asad have done more in the group matches than Malik and Ijaz in the whole tournament in 1992 TBH.The allroudner comparison can be done between Afridi and Imran.Sure,the latter was light years ahead as a captain,but as far as performances go,Afridi has been much better than Imran.So we have :
Opening Pair : 1992 > 2011
Middle Order : 1992 =< 2011
Captaincy : 1992 >= 2011
Bowling Attack : 1992 < 2011
This team is better than the 1992 squad.Look at the performances,not the names.The fact that we won the 1992 tournament tends to make people believe that the team was far superior to the ones we have in the WCs that followed.That isn't true.
Pacers
Wasim was not on his peak in the 1992 tournament,he went on to achieve that following the tournament.Plus he had a very ordinary tournament till the final stages.Gul has been more lethal than Wasim TBH.People tend to overlook Wasim's entire tournament simply because he was brilliant in the final.Imran the bowler was a spent force in 1992.The Aqib Javed of 1992 and the current Wahab Riaz of today are probably on the same level.But we didn't have an able backup like Shoaib AKhtar on the bench back then.We do now.So a pace attack of Shoaib,Razzaq,Gul and Wahab is better than a pace attack of Wasim,Imran and Aqib.I'm not going by the 1992 lot's potential.I'm going by what their performances were in the tournament.
Spin
Better than what we had in 1992.Mushtaq was not as lethal as Afridi has been in this tournament,whereas Rehman being the specialist bowler,is more capable than Sohail.Also,there is Ajmal.We didn't have such a strong spinner on the bench in 1992.
Middle Order
Hard to create a difference here.Javed was great in 1992.Misbah is playing the same role as him this time.There was a young Inzamam,now we have a young Umar Akmal.But Minus that,there was Ijaz in 1992,and he didnt do jack**** in the tournament.The same goes for Salim Malik.Imran did a good job as a batsman though,that too,towards the later part of the tournament.So :
Miandad in 1992 = Misbah in 2011
Inzi in 1992 = Umar in 2011
Which leaves us with Younis/Asad vs Malik/Ijaz.Younis/Asad have done more in the group matches than Malik and Ijaz in the whole tournament in 1992 TBH.The allroudner comparison can be done between Afridi and Imran.Sure,the latter was light years ahead as a captain,but as far as performances go,Afridi has been much better than Imran.So we have :
Opening Pair : 1992 > 2011
Middle Order : 1992 =< 2011
Captaincy : 1992 >= 2011
Bowling Attack : 1992 < 2011
This team is better than the 1992 squad.Look at the performances,not the names.The fact that we won the 1992 tournament tends to make people believe that the team was far superior to the ones we have in the WCs that followed.That isn't true.
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Howe_zat
Audio File
If we were at full strength I'd agree but without KP or Broad, and with Anderson and Colly playing so badly they've been dropped, this England side can't really be said to be as good.
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Himannv
Hall of Fame Member
Neither SA or NZ would scare anyone in a semi-final draw.
flibbertyjibber
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Sri Lanka to beat India in final.You have missed the outcomes for the semi finals and went straight to the winner of the WC
smash84
The Tiger King
Pal you should check out Salman's reply to your objections. I agree with pretty much everything that he has to say except for the fact that Imran>>>>>>>>>>captain than Afridi. That is the only point that I differ with Salman. I think he has addressed your concerns quite accurately.
smash84
The Tiger King
haha......so true both of these statements..........we must be every opposition captain's nightmare.........
Spark
Global Moderator
Yeah. I mean, we've harped on here about how underpar and **** Australia's batting was on Saturday evening but the fact was the Pakistan put probably the most or second most complete bowling and fielding performance of the tournament. They were absolutely outstanding from start to finish.
salman85
International Debutant
That side,let's put it this way,lacked imagination.Very mechanical.Plus they peaked too early in the tournament.This side has more match winners than they did back then.Also,This team doesn't rely on the never ending list of allrounders,it relies on specialists.The allrounder fallcy is something that England suffered from in the 1990s,and now that problem has been eliminated.They've got a great captain incharge,who i daresay,is doing a better job then Gooch.Plus they've got the best spinner in the world in their team.The England side from 1992 could not boast of one player in the team who would singelhandedly win you matches day in and day out.Sure there was Gooch,Botham,Hick etc,but not some of them were past their prime,others could not play legspin to save their lives,and others were just not as good as they were made out to be.
Even without KP and Broad,i think this English side is superior.The England of 1992 would not have been able to fight it out the way this team has done.
You're criminally underating Afridi's captaincy.Imran was the superior player and captain,but all of that is spread across a career spanning 20 years.Afridi doesn't hold a candle to him when it comes to that.But going by Imran the 1992 captain,and Afridi the 2011 captain,there is not as big a gap as you suggest.Leave his match winning performances aside,his body language tells the whole story.He had to lead a team that did not know its captain 10 days before the WC began,a team rocked by the spot fixing scandal,a team with the most idiotic PCB chairman in history at the helm,and a team without 2 of the best fast bowlers in the world.Still,he's doing a fantastic job.He's leading from the front.It's obvious from the energy he has on the field.
We haven't had such a motivated and focused group of players in a long long time.
Wasim and Amir 1996?No.
Wasim 1999?No.We went into the tournament in great form,without the usual controversies,so Wasim's job was not as hard as Afridi's is now.
Waqar 2003?No.
Inzamam 2007?No.
All were superior players than Afridi,but none of them had the same impact on the team.Plus,Afridi's impact on the tournament by his own form is greater than the form of our previous captains,yes,even Imran in 1992.So Afridi does deserve a LOT of credit for transforming our team into genuine contenders for the title.Imran the captain in 1992,and Afridi the captain in 2011 are not miles apart.
Agent Nationaux
International Coach
Top posts Salman, and I agree with most of what you have said. However I don't think that mentally (batting wise) this team is not as strong as the 92 one.
Our batsmen have been very nervous and edgy throughout their innings. Plus we all know that Afridi gets under pressure and so just tries to hit out of the ground. If only he set himself in like the T20 we won and then go berserk, he would perform better.
Also Afridi is too defensive unlike Imran. He isn't willing to take a risk by introducing Ajmal or playing Umar up the order etc, whereas I'm sure Imran would have taken more risks and would have always gone for the kill. In the match against the Aussies I feel we could have restricted them to an even lower total if Afridi had been more aggressive (Pak stepped off the gas just for a little while).
Our batsmen have been very nervous and edgy throughout their innings. Plus we all know that Afridi gets under pressure and so just tries to hit out of the ground. If only he set himself in like the T20 we won and then go berserk, he would perform better.
Also Afridi is too defensive unlike Imran. He isn't willing to take a risk by introducing Ajmal or playing Umar up the order etc, whereas I'm sure Imran would have taken more risks and would have always gone for the kill. In the match against the Aussies I feel we could have restricted them to an even lower total if Afridi had been more aggressive (Pak stepped off the gas just for a little while).
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salman85
International Debutant
The game in Imran's time was differnet.I want to see Ajmal play instead of Rehman too,but we have to accept that our batting is fragile.Like i said,there isn't a lot of differnece in this middle order and the 1992 middle order,but because the openers did so well back then,it didn't expose the middle order as often as it is being exposed now.That itself brings up a strong case for Rehman to be included in the team as he can bat too.I think because the pitches are flatter in the SC as compared to Australia,going full throttle against a batting lineup can backfire pretty badly if you start going for runs.Rehman is in there to give the defensive measure along with Hafeez.
Yeah i'd like to see Umar bat up the order too.But Asad has pretty much sealed his place with very solid performances,so why fix when it's not broken?.Had Hafeez not been a handy bowler,then maybe Umar could have been slotted in to open the innings,or maybe move Asad as an opener and make Umar play at no.3 The whole 'A Batsman who can bowl decently' mindset is very common these days,which vindicates Afridi's team selections.
Yeah i'd like to see Umar bat up the order too.But Asad has pretty much sealed his place with very solid performances,so why fix when it's not broken?.Had Hafeez not been a handy bowler,then maybe Umar could have been slotted in to open the innings,or maybe move Asad as an opener and make Umar play at no.3 The whole 'A Batsman who can bowl decently' mindset is very common these days,which vindicates Afridi's team selections.
smash84
The Tiger King
I didn't say that Afridi doesn't deserve credit for his captaincy but I think that you are criminally over rating Afridi's captaincy. I agree with Agent nations**** here that Afridi is quite defensive a lot of times while Imran always wanted to attack. Afridi has had a 15 year career already if you talk about Imran's 20 year career. Doesn't seem like 15 years with Afridi's immaturity does it? Could you imagine Imran playing the kind of shot that Afridi got out to against Aus???? Imran was a very responsible leader who led from the front and Afridi in a way is the height of ireresponsibility. While Afridi is doing an admirable job he is not close to Imran in terms of captaincy IMO. I can't imagine Afridi taking a team from the brink of elimination to lift the cup. Neither can Afridi nurture other players talents when he himself could not nurture his own
salman85
International Debutant
Afridi's shot selection 
The man has played this way for his entire career.It's the only way he knows.He will continue to play this way.When it comes off,people will say it was a great shot,when it doesn't,it looks ugly,and it has looked ugly for the majority of his career.But like i said,that's Afridi.He'll always bat like that.That's the Afridi we love and that's the Afridi we hate.
Afridi has been incharge for less than 3 years.Imran was incharge for almost 10 years.It's not even an argument about who was the better captain.It was Imran through and through.But Afridi's captaincy in 2011 is as good as,if not better than Imran's captaincy in the 1992 tournament.
Imran might not have played the shot Afridi did,because that wasn't his style.This is Afridi's style.Afridi is definitely not the height of irresponsibility.He takes responsibility,backs himself to take wickets,is always backing the team on the field,and has a positive energy about him that a Pakistani captain hasn't had in a long time.Don't judge him on his batting alone.Ofcourse Afridi won't nurture other players,because he won't be captain for too long.He'll probably give the job up after the tournament.Imran was captain for a long enough time to nurture great players.Afridi hasn't been a captain long enough to do that,nor do i think he has the same father figure type personality that Imran did.Imran was the oldest guy in the team,so the whole father figure thing came naturally to him.
Afridi isn't the oldest player in the team,nor does he have the same father figure effect.What Afridi does have however,is the charisma to inspire and encourage,and he has done that.To pick up a team that was down in the dumps a few months before the WC and make them genuine contenders for the title alone makes him a fantastic captain,and on part with Imran's captaincy in 1992.
The man has played this way for his entire career.It's the only way he knows.He will continue to play this way.When it comes off,people will say it was a great shot,when it doesn't,it looks ugly,and it has looked ugly for the majority of his career.But like i said,that's Afridi.He'll always bat like that.That's the Afridi we love and that's the Afridi we hate.
Afridi has been incharge for less than 3 years.Imran was incharge for almost 10 years.It's not even an argument about who was the better captain.It was Imran through and through.But Afridi's captaincy in 2011 is as good as,if not better than Imran's captaincy in the 1992 tournament.
Imran might not have played the shot Afridi did,because that wasn't his style.This is Afridi's style.Afridi is definitely not the height of irresponsibility.He takes responsibility,backs himself to take wickets,is always backing the team on the field,and has a positive energy about him that a Pakistani captain hasn't had in a long time.Don't judge him on his batting alone.Ofcourse Afridi won't nurture other players,because he won't be captain for too long.He'll probably give the job up after the tournament.Imran was captain for a long enough time to nurture great players.Afridi hasn't been a captain long enough to do that,nor do i think he has the same father figure type personality that Imran did.Imran was the oldest guy in the team,so the whole father figure thing came naturally to him.
Afridi isn't the oldest player in the team,nor does he have the same father figure effect.What Afridi does have however,is the charisma to inspire and encourage,and he has done that.To pick up a team that was down in the dumps a few months before the WC and make them genuine contenders for the title alone makes him a fantastic captain,and on part with Imran's captaincy in 1992.
smash84
The Tiger King
dude Imran wasn't even playing in the beginning of the cup due to injury especially in that horrid 10 wicket loss to WI and also that match against England where Pakistan were 74 all out and rain came to the rescue. Pakistan's performance picked up after he was back as captain. SA match was lost because of rain otherwise Pak were coasting. The India loss was a genuine one though. So he does deserve credit for not "taking them to the brink of elimination".
I must commend you for some wonderful writing here BUT I must make a few things clear. Firstly I am not judging Afridi on his batting alone. His bowling has been good against minnows and in one match against SL otherwise Afridi is no Wasim Akram. Even at the end of Imran's career I would take Imran over Afridi as a bowler. Afridi is now getting in his mid 30s. He is fast becoming a father-age figure but I doubt he will ever become a father figure to most players even if he plays until he is 50.Afridi's shot selection
The man has played this way for his entire career.It's the only way he knows.He will continue to play this way.When it comes off,people will say it was a great shot,when it doesn't,it looks ugly,and it has looked ugly for the majority of his career.But like i said,that's Afridi.He'll always bat like that.That's the Afridi we love and that's the Afridi we hate.
Afridi has been incharge for less than 3 years.Imran was incharge for almost 10 years.It's not even an argument about who was the better captain.It was Imran through and through.But Afridi's captaincy in 2011 is as good as,if not better than Imran's captaincy in the 1992 tournament.
Imran might not have played the shot Afridi did,because that wasn't his style.This is Afridi's style.Afridi is definitely not the height of irresponsibility.He takes responsibility,backs himself to take wickets,is always backing the team on the field,and has a positive energy about him that a Pakistani captain hasn't had in a long time.Don't judge him on his batting alone.Ofcourse Afridi won't nurture other players,because he won't be captain for too long.He'll probably give the job up after the tournament.Imran was captain for a long enough time to nurture great players.Afridi hasn't been a captain long enough to do that,nor do i think he has the same father figure type personality that Imran did.Imran was the oldest guy in the team,so the whole father figure thing came naturally to him.
Afridi isn't the oldest player in the team,nor does he have the same father figure effect.What Afridi does have however,is the charisma to inspire and encourage,and he has done that.To pick up a team that was down in the dumps a few months before the WC and make them genuine contenders for the title alone makes him a fantastic captain,and on part with Imran's captaincy in 1992.
And pal this is no excuse "The man has played this way for his entire career.It's the only way he knows". Imran was a very carefree kind of cricketer, quite flamboyant before he became captain. Tells you a lot about the responsibility that he as willing to shoulder. Can't say the same Afridi. I like the guy, I really do but comparing him with Imran is a bit over the top IMO. Heck even Wasim before the match fixing scandal was a better captain than Afridi is. Though I must say that Wasim used the same style of leadership as Imran.