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*Official* England in Australia (2 T20 & 7 ODIs)

T

tooextracool

International Coach
pup11 said:
First thing first, I really don't buy into this whole spinners become ****e by just by playing limited overs cricket,there is nothing to suggest that you need to bowl flat in limited overs cricket to be successful as a spin bowler. In fact both Rashid (in the Big Bash) and Smith have bowled really well by mixing up their lenths and pace.

The performance of Smith in the recent ODI games should also help the Aus think tank realise that at this point of Smith's career compared to his batting, his bowling in going to be more handy at the international level, so we need to stop treating him as a part-time bowler.
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You are right, there is nothing to suggest that bowling flatter and quicker makes you a better ODI bowler. Quite the opposite in fact. But when you get smacked around all over the park, as these 2 will undoubtedly, this is inevitably what happens. Neither Smith, nor Rashid are ready to play limited overs cricket as bowlers alone. That fact in itself should suggest that they are likely to be caned. Now is it a good learning exercise to be getting caned around the park as a young leg spinner? That is really up for debate. I suppose it depends on the bowler itself, but the majority of young bowlers don't like it and dont have the ba*** to toss one up again after they have been put 10 rows back.
 
pup11

pup11

International Coach
tooextracool said:
You are right, there is nothing to suggest that bowling flatter and quicker makes you a better ODI bowler. Quite the opposite in fact. But when you get smacked around all over the park, as these 2 will undoubtedly, this is inevitably what happens. Neither Smith, nor Rashid are ready to play limited overs cricket as bowlers alone. That fact in itself should suggest that they are likely to be caned. Now is it a good learning exercise to be getting caned around the park as a young leg spinner? That is really up for debate. I suppose it depends on the bowler itself, but the majority of young bowlers don't like it and dont have the ba*** to toss one up again after they have been put 10 rows back.
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The great Shane Keith Warne was destroyed in his first test, but he came back stronger from that expereince, I don't think you can shield any of your bowlers anymore especially your spinners. If you believe a guy has some potential then you gotta back him to the hilt come what may, the problem these days is that there aren't enough captains around who have the ba*** to back their players, especially bowlers when they are getting flogged.

A bloke like Smith or anyone for that matter would bowl flat even in test cricket or FC cricket when the batsmen attack, if they don't have the mental strength or the support of their captain.
 
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vic_orthdox

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
pup11 said:
First thing first, I really don't buy into this whole spinners become ****e by just by playing limited overs cricket,there is nothing to suggest that you need to bowl flat in limited overs cricket to be successful as a spin bowler. In fact both Rashid (in the Big Bash) and Smith have bowled really well by mixing up their lenths and pace.

The performance of Smith in the recent ODI games should also help the Aus think tank realise that at this point of Smith's career compared to his batting, his bowling in going to be more handy at the international level, so we need to stop treating him as a part-time bowler.
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Have you watched any of the Big Bash? If it's helping Rashid's long term development by him bowling two balls an over basically seam-up, then I'll go "Heee!".

One day cricket isn't going to "kill" them, but bowling isn't the same. We want to develop Smith into a guy who gets blokes out caught at slip, short leg and that; by getting more and more work on the ball and combining that with planning and accuracy. That gets sacrificed for getting through an over at less than 6.
 
Jacknife

Jacknife

International Captain
vic_orthdox said:
Have you watched any of the Big Bash? If it's helping Rashid's long term development by him bowling two balls an over basically seam-up, then I'll go "Heee!".

One day cricket isn't going to "kill" them, but bowling isn't the same. We want to develop Smith into a guy who gets blokes out caught at slip, short leg and that; by getting more and more work on the ball and combining that with planning and accuracy. That gets sacrificed for getting through an over at less than 6.
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I think if anything, it should help Rashid's development as far as bowling in foreign conditions , to batsmen he's never seen before, in pressure situations.From the matches I've caught of him he's bowling very well out there and from a Yorkshire perspective, like I've said I'm happy he's out there getting the experience.
 
FBU

FBU

International Debutant
Jacknife said:
I think if anything, it should help Rashid's development as far as bowling in foreign conditions , to batsmen he's never seen before, in pressure situations.From the matches I've caught of him he's bowling very well out there and from a Yorkshire perspective, like I've said I'm happy he's out there getting the experience.
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Rashid's doing well, joint leading wicket taker for SA with Lyon, but with better economy.

9 wickets at 12.11 econ 6.41 s/r 11.3
 
T

tooextracool

International Coach
pup11 said:
The great Shane Keith Warne was destroyed in his first test, but he came back stronger from that expereince, I don't think you can shield any of your bowlers anymore especially your spinners. If you believe a guy has some potential then you gotta back him to the hilt come what may, the problem these days is that there aren't enough captains around who have the ba*** to back their players, especially bowlers when they are getting flogged.

A bloke like Smith or anyone for that matter would bowl flat even in test cricket or FC cricket when the batsmen attack, if they don't have the mental strength or the support of their captain.
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Really dont see why Warne is brought into this. The guy had more self belief in his own bowling than almost every other bowler in the game and I dont think theres going to be too many people like him. Not to mention that Warne started out in an era when limited overs werent yet the dominant form of the game or at least in an era when even in limited overs cricket, bowlers werent subject to flat tracks, stronger bats, smaller fields and 300+ scores being the norm.

From what I've seen of Smith, what I like about his bowling is that he's willing to toss the ball up and I wouldn't want that to be taken away from him by captains such as Ponting or from situations where he gets smashed all over the park and has no other option.

Rashid on the other hand is ordinary at the moment for precisely the opposite reason. The guy generally bowls too flat to succeed in the longer format and hence playing more limited overs cricket is only going to make that problem worse.
 
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
Apparently Clarke almost went back to Sydney to play grade cricket today.

EDIT: It seems he asked CA, who said no.
 
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Jacknife

Jacknife

International Captain
tooextracool said:
Really dont see why Warne is brought into this. The guy had more self belief in his own bowling than almost every other bowler in the game and I dont think theres going to be too many people like him. Not to mention that Warne started out in an era when limited overs werent yet the dominant form of the game or at least in an era when even in limited overs cricket, bowlers werent subject to flat tracks, stronger bats, smaller fields and 300+ scores being the norm.

From what I've seen of Smith, what I like about his bowling is that he's willing to toss the ball up and I wouldn't want that to be taken away from him by captains such as Ponting or from situations where he gets smashed all over the park and has no other option.

Rashid on the other hand is ordinary at the moment for precisely the opposite reason. The guy generally bowls too flat to succeed in the longer format and hence playing more limited overs cricket is only going to make that problem worse.
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Have I got this right? What your saying is, you think Smith is a better bowler than Rashid. Righto.
 
T

tooextracool

International Coach
Jacknife said:
Have I got this right? What your saying is, you think Smith is a better bowler than Rashid. Righto.
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Nope, I think you managed to come to that own conclusion on your own. I think neither is test class, but Smith has more potential because hes willing to toss it up. Has nothing to so with who is better at the moment, especially when instead of comparing apples with apples, we are comparing ****e with ****e +
 
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