Three horse race to be the best team in the world?

[Dissector]

Again, Swann has been impressive at home only against the West Indies and a match-fixing Pakistan. Against Australia he averaged 40. Bhajji has been uneven but he has been consistent against SA and Australia in India for several years now. In the last three years he has taken 55 wickets at 29 in 10 tests which is more impressive than anything that Swann has achieved in his entire test career.

Bhajji's worst performances have come against Sri Lanka which Swann hasn't even played against. In Sri Lanka in particular he faced them on flat wickets with woeful support from his seamers. I would love to see Swann bowl at the SSC against Dilshan, Jayawardane, Sangakarra and Samarweera alongside bowlers of the calibre of Ishant and Mithun.

 

[Howe_zat]

Again, Swann has been impressive at home only against the West Indies and a match-fixing Pakistan. Against Australia he averaged 40. Bhajji has been uneven but he has been consistent against SA and Australia in India for several years now. In the last three years he has taken 55 wickets at 29 in 10 tests which is more impressive than anything that Swann has achieved in his entire test career.

Bhajji's worst performances have come against Sri Lanka which Swann hasn't even played against. In Sri Lanka in particular he faced them on flat wickets with woeful support from his seamers. I would love to see Swann bowl at the SSC against Dilshan, Jayawardane, Sangakarra and Samarweera alongside bowlers of the calibre of Ishant and Mithun.

This has descended into name calling now. Clearly I value consistently decent-to-excellent performances against all opponents more than you do. I'm leaving it there.

 

[centurymaker]

Swann has performed better than Harbhajan over the last 2 years.
However, his performances have indeed been exaggerated.

 

[Teja.]

The summary for me:-

Swann has been the best spinner for the last two years due to his consistency, Harby has been dire sometimes but has been better than Swann by a small margin while performing against the other top 2 sides. Since Harby has looked like he's regained his form, It'll be interesting to see who will come out on top in 2011.

Group hug then, IMO.

 

[Dissector]

This has descended into name calling now. Clearly I value consistently decent-to-excellent performances against all opponents more than you do. I'm leaving it there.

OK, let's agree to disagree but where the hell is the name-calling in my post?

 

[Howe_zat]

OK, let's agree to disagree but where the hell is the name-calling in my post?

"Match-fixing Pakistan" - when all we have are allegations against their bowlers. You started off suggesting it and then decided to use it as an insult. It's not a good area to take this.

 

[Dissector]

It was meant as a fact not an insult. I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that Pakistan has been matchfixing even if it hasn't been proved in a court of law. And while the accusations have been against the bowlers, what kind of morale and preperation will the rest of the team have in that situation? Clearly the entire team was in disarray. Anyway regardless of the match-fixing issue, clearly this was an inferior batting line-up which was the main point.

 

[vcs]

TBH, Swann was quite brilliant against Pakistan and he deserves credit for that. 22 wickets@12.22 is fantastic no matter the circumstances.

 

[Dissector]

Yes, like I said I think Swann is clearly better against weak batting lineups than Bhajji. I guess it's a matter of how much weight you put on that and personally I don't put much especially in the context of the no.1 team discussion.

 

[Spark]

Again, Swann has been impressive at home only against the West Indies and a match-fixing Pakistan. Against Australia he averaged 40. Bhajji has been uneven but he has been consistent against SA and Australia in India for several years now. In the last three years he has taken 55 wickets at 29 in 10 tests which is more impressive than anything that Swann has achieved in his entire test career.

Bhajji's worst performances have come against Sri Lanka which Swann hasn't even played against. In Sri Lanka in particular he faced them on flat wickets with woeful support from his seamers. I would love to see Swann bowl at the SSC against Dilshan, Jayawardane, Sangakarra and Samarweera alongside bowlers of the calibre of Ishant and Mithun.

But he never will so I don't see how this can really be used in the argument.

 

[zaremba]

South Africa are a pretty formidable team. I'd say their batting line-up is every bit as strong as India's, but Steyn and perhaps Morkel aside, their bowling looks pretty pedestrian. England are workmanlike but have very few weak links, good reserves, and have an exceptional team spirit and resilience. All in all, it's hard to split the three.

If England and India were to play a Test series in India instead of playing in the WC, India would of course be favourites. But I just don't understand the bullish "I can't see how England could win a Test match here" talk coming from some of the Indian fans on this forum. England have a strong and balanced team and shown themselves capable of winning Tests anywhere, and well capable of winning against the odds.

The 2-Test mini-series in December 2008 showed that England were capable of scoring runs and taking wickets in India. Sure, they lost at Chennai but that was having played themselves into a winning position, setting India 387 to win. A team which sets targets like that will win more games than it loses. And in my view England are now a stronger team than they were back in 2008.

England v India in England will be an interesting series. I'd have England as favourites in English conditions, but whoever wins it will be close. And if we do win, the hubris of one or two of the Indian fans would make that quite a sweet victory.

PS I have to admit, the battle for World No 1 really doesn't get my pulses racing as perhaps it should. I'm an unashamed Ashes saddo.

 

[Tom 1972]

Andrew Strauss *
Alastair Cook
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Sachin Tendulkar
Ian Bell
Matt Prior +
Graeme Swann
Dale Steyn
James Anderson
Chris Tremlett

TBH.

that made me laugh out loud.

I watch alot of the series on telly here. Seriously 'thou, the way the Poms played, honestly, the above team would be quite competitive with the best of the rest. Champion team beating a team of champions and all that.

 

[zaremba]

It was meant as a fact not an insult. I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that Pakistan has been matchfixing even if it hasn't been proved in a court of law. And while the accusations have been against the bowlers, what kind of morale and preperation will the rest of the team have in that situation? Clearly the entire team was in disarray. Anyway regardless of the match-fixing issue, clearly this was an inferior batting line-up which was the main point.

There has been no suggestion, and there is no evidence, that Pakistan fixed any Tests in England. Spot-fixing and match fixing are very different things. While spot-fixing is an extremely serious matter, it cannot take the gloss off England's performance in the 2010 Test series. In fact the occasion when Pakistan are alleged to have spot-fixed was at Lord's when (2 or 3 suspicious no-balls apart) they bowled like demons - far better, as it happens, than one would expect an Indian attack to perform in English conditions - and England managed to stage an absolutely brilliant recovery.

 

[Dissector]

The term "match-fixing" has been used frequently including by English newspapers. In any case regardless of the details of the allegations my point was that it was a weak batting lineup in a team which was clearly in disarray. The exact nature of the allegations isn't particularly relevant.

 

[Tom 1972]

Swann has averaged 40 against Australia in both Ashes. At some point you can't just hide behind good-looking spells, you have to produce results. And against good batting sides Swann just hasn't done that consistently.

Also it's not correct to assume that Bhajji is bowling on turners in India. In the last couple of years there haven't been too many of those and if anything given the odd out-and-out road, it may be a bit more difficult bowling in India than England.

Probably the respective SA tours are the best source of comparision between the two bowlers since we have the same side in the same conditions in a recent series. Though Swann got MOTS, his batting probably played a significant role in that as well. In terms of bowing he had a good series but certainly not better than Bhajji who was handicapped by having to bowl with a terrible seam attack in the first test.

Mate, you're like the Energiser bunny - just keep going on and on....

 

[Dissector]

Mate, you're like the Energiser bunny - just keep going on and on....

Do you have any substantive comments to make here or is it just going to be random insults?

 

[Spark]

There has been no suggestion, and there is no evidence, that Pakistan fixed any Tests in England. Spot-fixing and match fixing are very different things. While spot-fixing is an extremely serious matter, it cannot take the gloss off England's performance in the 2010 Test series. In fact the occasion when Pakistan are alleged to have spot-fixed was at Lord's when (2 or 3 suspicious no-balls apart) they bowled like demons - far better, as it happens, than one would expect an Indian attack to perform in English conditions - and England managed to stage an absolutely brilliant recovery.

Without being aided by lunatic fielding or captaincy I may add.

 

[Teja.]

Personally, I don't see why England shouldn't get credit for beating Pakistan triumphantly just because the Pakistan team had a few low-life pricks. It's something which is completely independent of the English team. The English team's duty was to perform at it's best, IMHO, You have to give credit for everything the English team did. If your argument is that the Pakistan team had a **** batting line up, then that's fine but whether Salman Butt was fixing or not for me doesn't detract a little bit from how well Jimmy Anderson bowled.

 

[Spark]

I remember one delivery Anderson bowled to Butt, pitched some way outside leg short of a length, looked to be heading down leg for all money, then suddenly decides to make a sharp powerslide turn and clips the outside edge of a fairly normal defensive stroke, goes straight to slip. Absolute beast of a ball, would've been the best delivery I've seen all year (and for a long time) had Steyn not bowled that godlike ball to Pujara.

 

[Dissector]

Personally, I don't see why England shouldn't get credit for beating Pakistan triumphantly just because the Pakistan team had a few low-life pricks. It's something which is completely independent of the English team. The English team's duty was to perform at it's best, IMHO, You have to give credit for everything the English team did. If your argument is that the Pakistan team had a **** batting line up, then that's fine but whether Salman Butt was fixing or not for me doesn't detract a little bit from how well Jimmy Anderson bowled.

Well the point is that a team which is embroiled in a matchfixing controversy is especially unlikely to be well prepared or in good morale. It's not taking anything away from England; I think they would have beaten Paksitan anyway. Anyway this whole discussion is a complete distraction. My main point is that Swann's numbers against good batting sides have been ordinary at home and away and that still stands.