Which cricketer has the most complete record?

[Ikki]

Nothing weird about it. Indian bowlers, especially in the 90's and early 00's (before wickets stopped assisting spinners in India) were terrible overseas and excellent at home. Facing Indian spinners in India was one of the premier challenges of that era.

But the difference is what is weird. No matter how you paint it; simply put, averaging 79 at home and 29 away doesn't begin to explain it. India were worse away from home...but not 3 times worse. Ponting has a fantastic record across the sub-continent and against pretty much all spinners bar Harbhajan. It is more a weird anomaly than anything. He's faced better opponents/better bowlers and doesn't have a record anywhere near as poor.

To Baga:

Disagree. Sachin's average of 40 against Pakistan is poor considering the run-gorging of his time in those series. More to the point that he didn't rectify his record till after Pakistan lost their attack. He also averages in the 30s against S.Africa at home IIRC. That's not as complete a record as Ponting's IMO. He clearly had problems against several attacks, when those attacks were good.

By your definition, a batsman can average 37 overall, averaging 35-37 both home and away against all countries and that makes him more complete than Ponting. To me that's inane. Try as you might, you won't ever convince me of that. Agree to disagree.

 

[bagapath]

By your definition, a batsman can average 37 overall, averaging 35-37 both home and away against all countries and that makes him more complete than Ponting. To me that's inane. Try as you might, you won't ever convince me of that. Agree to disagree.

if two batsmen average 35 each,
and one of them averages 35 both home and away
and the second one averages 45 at home and 25 away
the first batsman is more complete, without doubt.

again ponting is very similar to javed miandad on this. javed averaged 60 at home and 45 away. ponting averages about 47 away. very similar stats befitting ponting's status as a great batsman one rung below sachin and lara, the same way miandad was one tier lower than richards and chappell.

 

[Ikki]

if two batsmen average 35 each,
and one of them averages 35 both home and away
and the second one averages 45 at home and 25 away
the first batsman is more complete, without doubt.

again ponting is very similar to javed miandad on this. javed averaged 60 at home and 45 away. ponting averages about 47 away. very similar stats befitting ponting's status as a great batsman one rung below sachin and lara, the same way miandad was one tier lower than richards and chappell.

That's the problem with your analogy.

Both batsmen don't average the same against the team they have problem with.

Ponting averages 47 against India - higher than both of Tendulkar's averages against both Pakistan and S.Africa.

Your analogy would be more apt if

Player A: 40 overall (45 at home, 25 away)
Player B: 35 overall (35 at home, 35 away)

Personally, even if they did have the same overall average I'd still take player A as he's going to at least be of used to me at home whereas player B is going to useless regardless.

Another interesting fact for you: Tendulkar averages 50 and above away against 4 countries (Australia, Bangladesh, England and Sri Lanka). Ponting averages 50 and above away against 6 countries (S.Africa, NZ, SL, Bangladesh, Pak, WI).
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We're rehashing covered ground; let's agree to disagree. Tendulkar is a very consistent batsman - more than Lara was TBF - but for me is not as consistent as Ponting.

 

[bagapath]

We're rehashing covered ground; let's agree to disagree.

happy new year mate. hope you get lots of *** and make tons of money this year.

 

[Ikki]

Haha, you too.

 

[smash84]

We're rehashing covered ground; let's agree to disagree. Tendulkar is a very consistent batsman - more than Lara was TBF - but for me is not as consistent as Ponting.

But Ponting has been awful since 2008 onwards Ikki, Like I said earlier. Tendy's and Ricky's careers seem to be moving like Imran and Botham. One getting better and the other just falling away.

 

[Ikki]

But Ponting has been awful since 2008 onwards Ikki, Like I said earlier. Tendy's and Ricky's careers seem to be moving like Imran and Botham. One getting better and the other just falling away.

I'm not sure how that relates to our discussion. We are talking about home and away records and their "completeness"; not consistency throughout their careers on a year by year form.

 

[shankar]

But the difference is what is weird. No matter how you paint it; simply put, averaging 79 at home and 29 away doesn't begin to explain it. India were worse away from home...but not 3 times worse. Ponting has a fantastic record across the sub-continent and against pretty much all spinners bar Harbhajan. It is more a weird anomaly than anything. He's faced better opponents/better bowlers and doesn't have a record anywhere near as poor.

His average in India without Harbhajan is pretty much the same. He averaged 19 in the 4 tests in the 90's where Harbhajan didn't play.

Indian spinners including Kumble haven't been much of a threat outside India against every team. It's a standard pattern that they were innocuous abroad in most countries and tigers at home (well atleast before recent years).

 

[Avada Kedavra]

But Ponting has been awful since 2008 onwards Ikki, Like I said earlier. Tendy's and Ricky's careers seem to be moving like Imran and Botham. One getting better and the other just falling away.

Ricky avg since mw retired is 41.It shows he is not great in weak team.Imagine if he had play his full career 4 a weak team.His away avg is 48...much less than true greats.

 

[Ikki]

His average in India without Harbhajan is pretty much the same. He averaged 19 in the 4 tests in the 90's where Harbhajan didn't play.

You're right, Ponting averaged 29 not 19 (I think that's a typo). Averages 73 though overall in matches without Harbhajan. :/

Indian spinners including Kumble haven't been much of a threat outside India against every team. It's a standard pattern that they were innocuous abroad in most countries and tigers at home (well atleast before recent years).

Yes, but they're not that bad away from home to explain the difference. India weren't good away from home at all but Ponting averages 43 points higher at home than away. The conditions at home don't begin to explain it on those terms solely. It's not as if spin-conducive pitches hindered him as his record away from home against Pakistan and Sri Lanka show he was comfortable.

 

[JBH001]

That Ponting has been quite **** when the Aussie team is not as strong certainly brings him down a notch in my estimation. Sachin played like a star even when his team was **** (read as the 90s). Now that Australia have a comparable team Ponting's batting has gone to the dogs.

That's a really good point. That had not occurred to me before. Ponting has gone missing somewhat when his team needed him to really stand up.

 

[JBH001]

All he [Tendulkar] had to do was wait for Wasim, Waqar, Donald and Pollock to retire

lol, can't help himself.

 

[Furball]

That's a really good point. That had not occurred to me before. Ponting has gone missing somewhat when his team needed him to really stand up.

The flip side to that argument is that Ponting was largely responsible for Australian greatness. Ponting's personal decline as he's gotten older mirrors Australia's decline.

 

[Burgey]

Ricky avg since mw retired is 41.It shows he is not great in weak team.Imagine if he had play his full career 4 a weak team.His away avg is 48...much less than true greats.

What a crock of ****. He's declined as a player as he's got older. How you transmogrify that to him being poor all career had his team been weak is beyond me.

 

[centurymaker]

Tendulakr avgs-
36.25 at home against SA ( 17 innings - good enough sample size- only just)
46.44 away against SA (28 innings - good sample size)
Overall avg - 42.46 (normally matches against SA have been relatively somewhat low scoring)
------------------
avgs 44.15 at home against Pak (14 innings)
avgs 40.25 away against Pak (13 innings- the sample size is too small both home and away tbh)
Overall avg - 42.28 (1 good series (like his recent SA tour) against them in the future can seriously push his avg up into the high 40's and the home or away figure into the early 50's)

There was one high-scoring series against Pak in 2006 in which he scored 63 runs off 3 innings.
Not only did he not captalize on easier conditions and weaker bowling attack in that series, he failed miserably (possibly because of his tennis elbow??).

For instance, if you take that series out, his avg in Pak goes up to 46.67 ( so just 3 innings push his avg up by 6.5).
2nd Test: Pakistan v India at Faisalabad, Jan 21-25, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Hence, IMO it's somewhat unfair to criticize him when the sample size is this small.

 

[JBH001]

The flip side to that argument is that Ponting was largely responsible for Australian greatness. Ponting's personal decline as he's gotten older mirrors Australia's decline.

Largely? That's a very long bow, indeed. This is not to say I accept that argument, tbh, only that it is an interesting point. Especially in the context of the recent Ashes series.

 

[Furball]

Largely? That's a very long bow, indeed. This is not to say I accept that argument, tbh, only that it is an interesting point. Especially in the context of the recent Ashes series.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really.

 

[JBH001]

Yeah, I thought you might be.

In any case, even if a valid point, which I think it is, I'm not sure how much weight to give it. After all, if Ponting has reached the age where batsmanship traditionally declines, it's hard to hold that too much against him (especially after the career he has had); and when Sachin was (to a large extent) carrying Indian batting in the 90s (especially overseas) he was in his 20s and in his prime.

 

[Ikki]

lol, can't help himself.

Was a sly dig, I put my hand up.

But in all honesty you have to respect this resurgence. Personally, I rate players whom deal with adversity and come back stronger highly. I've always trumpeted how Warne and Lillee came back from their downturns in their careers and came back strong because, IMO, it's the trait of a true champion and Tendulkar has really done that. I reckon he is batting better now than he did in the 90s TBF.

In this kind of form and with the Indian team being the way it is I reckon he's destined to finally win that elusive WC title.

 

[centurymaker]

Was a sly dig, I put my hand up.

But in all honesty you have to respect this resurgence. Personally, I rate players whom deal with adversity and come back stronger highly. I've always trumpeted how Warne and Lillee came back from their downturns in their careers and came back strong because, IMO, it's the trait of a true champion and Tendulkar has really done that. I reckon he is batting better now than he did in the 90s TBF.

In this kind of form and with the Indian team being the way it is I reckon he's destined to finally win that elusive WC title.

Nah tendulakr to score a 100 in teh final and india to lose