Faisal1985
International Vice-Captain
No he is not.
You know who is a terrible player... Cook, Trott and whats his name there Strauss.
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Best ever ODI batsman
- Thread starter ankitj
- Start date
No he is not.
You know who is a terrible player... Cook, Trott and whats his name there Strauss.
Migara
International Coach
Selective stats to prove your case. Making stats a whore. Classic Ikki stuff.
vcs
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We get it, you dislike India and their players. All hail the mighty Australia.
It was a collective failure, how hard is it to understand? Clearly I should have written off Mark Waugh as an ODI player just because Australia flopped in the '92 WC.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
That's really not it, at all. TBF, I thought you were better than that and you're just perpetuating the nonsense. Bevan built a legacy for impossible innings against amazing bowling. People think they can just compare the numbers flat out and encapsulate what he did; and then claim someone like Dhoni is as good as him. It's just crap if you've witnessed Bevan's career. And again, you could replace Dhoni with Hussey and my argument is the same so stop with the nationalistic bullcrap. Migara is starting to think he's funny.
We get it, you dislike India and their players. All hail the mighty Australia.
It was a collective failure, how hard is it to understand? Clearly I should have written off Mark Waugh as an ODI player just because Australia flopped in the '92 WC.
Furthermore, it was a collective failure; but as a finisher Dhoni could have rescued those innings. If every time Aus collapsed and Bevan failed too...it would also be a collective failure. Yet he stood tall and built unbelievable innings. It would only take Dhoni to bat longer than 0 for his team to have stood a chance in that tourney; but scores of 0, 0 and 29 are the reason he and his team were sent home early. It's not even that they lost; it's that he didn't help at all.
2nd SF: Australia v West Indies at Mohali, Mar 14, 1996 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Windies; Aus collapse to 4-15; Bevan comes in and helps add about another 160 and helps Aus win the match. Reminds me of his last ball 4 victory against WIndies in another match - that was incredible too.
16th Match: Australia v Pakistan at Leeds, May 23, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against Pakistan; Aus fall to 4-101, chasing 276; Bevan helps Aus fightback to 214 without a loss; however not enough as Aus lost by 10 runs.
2nd SF: Australia v South Africa at Birmingham, Jun 17, 1999 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against S.Africa; Aus fall to 4-68. Bevan and Waugh carry the fightback to 158, however Waugh goes. Bevan is left with the tail and takes Aus to a respectable 213. With some magic from Warne and a last ball blunder by Donald; Aus make the final in a thrilling match.
37th Match: Australia v England at Port Elizabeth, Mar 2, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against England; Aus collapses to 4-48, chasing 204. Bevan comes in and steadies the ship to 111. The next 4 wickets go in a hurry for only 24 runs. Another crisis but Bevan with help from Bichel take 135 to 208, winning the match with 2 balls to spare. An unforgettable match (as all these matches are really).
5th Super: Australia v New Zealand at Port Elizabeth, Mar 11, 2003 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Aus against England; Aus collapse to a pumped up NZ to an embarressing score of 7/84. Bevan and Bichel once again put on a big partnership taking the score to 208. The Aus bowlers make the NZ bowlers look human and bowl NZ out 112, giving Aus the win.
And just LOOK at those attacks: Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop; Wasim, Akhtar, Saqlain; Donald, Pollock, Kallis and Klusener...
This is why I may seem a bit aggressive but you're talking about a guy who did this kind of thing a lot. The above were examples from the WC. Do you think anyone cared that instead of slogging his way to those scores Bevan took his time and built innings to buy back the pride of his country?
When Dhoni has these kinds of innings in such a tournament; along with having the longevity and being able to compare statistically to Bevan...then that'll be a debate. And no, that has nothing to do nationalism.
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vcs
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OK, fair enough. I agree with all those instances and they were indeed pretty incredible efforts (I don't think you've mentioned the Australian Tri-series match where he won the match from 6/40 or something against WI with a last-ball four) so yeah, Dhoni has a long way to go to match those heroics. But I think people take issue with blanket statements like "that's why he has 2 WC medals and Dhoni has none" when Dhoni has only played one WC so far. Yeah, he has failed in that one but he might rectify that yet.
Migara
International Coach
Aravinda de Silva's WC '96 Semi Finals and Finals , and that epic tie in 2003 WC with SAF, innings just sends those five innings from Bevan for a spin. If better batsmen are ones who do better in WC Aravinda > Bevan. And most importantly Bevan flopped [36*(49)] in the final where he was unable to accelerate. Classic case of evidence that bevan was not a complete player. Dhoni would have doen it close to 49(49) in that instance.
Once again Ikki in that WC performance shoker. I can use Klusener as an example too.
Once again Ikki in that WC performance shoker. I can use Klusener as an example too.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
I just find it hypocritical where in this forum people differentiate between batsmen based on the tracks they score on or the bowling eras they batted in - due to the difficulty in those instances - then think it shouldn't be done in terms of WC/when the situation is dire.
No because Aravinda does not have an overall record to compare to Bevan. No one made the argument that you can do f-all and then show up in the WC and have a great one and that makes you better.
This has been told to you before; yet you keep beating the same strawman. One wonders if you keep forgetting it; are not understanding; or are ignoring it so you seem like you have a point.
Also, that finals loss had nothing to do with Bev batting slowly. If he'd scored at a run a ball we still would have lost. He was still the 3rd fastest scorer in Aus team in that innings. SL were too good on that day.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Ikki, few points:
One, not many are actually arguing that Dhoni is better than Bevan. There's a reason I myself did not include Dhoni in this poll.
Two, to say Dhoni and Bevan can't be named in the same sentence is outright disrespect to Dhoni because he does merit a comparison even if he finishes second best. He has occupied the top position in ODI ranking charts for the best part of last 3 years, having won ICC ODI player of the year award twice in a row.
Three, you cannot unilaterally decide which games are big (World Cups, Ashes etc). For an Indian cricketer, Indo-Pak matches are often as intense as world cup games. Dhoni has played some truly unbelievable knocks against them.
Four, try passionately arguing for a non-Australian cricketer and that will help you gain some credibility.
Five, to say Bevan has 2 world cups and Dhoni has none is nonsensical, any which way you look at it. Has to be said even if you take offence on that.
One, not many are actually arguing that Dhoni is better than Bevan. There's a reason I myself did not include Dhoni in this poll.
Two, to say Dhoni and Bevan can't be named in the same sentence is outright disrespect to Dhoni because he does merit a comparison even if he finishes second best. He has occupied the top position in ODI ranking charts for the best part of last 3 years, having won ICC ODI player of the year award twice in a row.
Three, you cannot unilaterally decide which games are big (World Cups, Ashes etc). For an Indian cricketer, Indo-Pak matches are often as intense as world cup games. Dhoni has played some truly unbelievable knocks against them.
Four, try passionately arguing for a non-Australian cricketer and that will help you gain some credibility.
Five, to say Bevan has 2 world cups and Dhoni has none is nonsensical, any which way you look at it. Has to be said even if you take offence on that.
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Migara
International Coach
Ha! Ha! now you are going back to all the matches and changing goal posts.
Bevan in WCs 44.75 @ 64. (1996 - 2003)
Aravinda in WCs 36.7 @ 87 (1987 - 2003), hence Aravinda's Sr will further swell when standardized. During same time period (96 - 03) (43.8 @ 94) Aravinda easily dwarfs Bevan in WCs.
These two are equal in WCs. Since de Silva has better WC SFs and finals than Bevan, he's a greater player according to your WC stats.
Once again Ikki, in a Wc shocker.
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vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
TBF, I think that Ikki is saying that Aravinda's record doesn't compare over all ODIs, so while he's been fantastic in those World Cups, it doesn't stand that he is a better player than Bevan.
NUFAN
Y no Afghanistan flag
Bevan's World Cup SR goes down quite a bit due to his innings in this match 20* from 69 balls - team tactics..
One thing that I had forgotten about Bevan's famous 4 from the last ball match was that he didn't actually get MoTM, it went to Reiffel who took 4 wickets and 30 odd.
Migara
International Coach
No it isn't. He's using WC matches to support his argument by just ignoring majority of the matches. I took a step forward and showed that since Aravinda and Bevan has similar WC reords, Aravinda's record in finals makes him a better player than Bevan. This is Ikki's own little selective way of stats picking, and I am using his methods and giving a bit of his own medicine.
Next we look at Lance Klusener. Averages 41.1 and SR of 90. Comparable record with Bevan. And in WCs Klusener averages 124 @ 121. Hence Klusener > Bevan. Ikki's once again in hi WC matches shocker.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
You should perhaps try reading my posts. I didn't make it out as if Dhoni is an ordinary batsman or anything like that. In fact, I said he'll probably go down as an all-time great. What I objected to was him being called as good of a finisher as Bevan. I have a big disagreement with that.
Secondly, the point about Bevan having 2 WCs was to show that his SR - which was being denigrated - was not really a weakness. It was because of his risk-averse nature that we were so successful. Perhaps if Dhoni was more inclined to get himself in at the WC he played then he'd have gone further.
Thank you. I didn't think it was so hard to understand.
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
TBF, that is one of the big reasons I rate Viv ahead of Tendulkar. It's an interesting thing in cricket. In football, if two players have similar output but one performs at the WC and at the highest stage he will get far more credit than the one that doesn't.
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ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
The match situations count for nothing? Batting first vs chasing a score that had never been chased before? And the number of shots they get at playing finals?
Sachin's WC03 final failure is the last innings I will cite as an example of capitulation under pressure, because there really was no pressure by the time he came to bat. The match was settled in the first half. There couldn't have been any coherent strategy for chasing that score down.
smash84
The Tiger King
I don't know about that Ankit. Match situations should count for something shouldn't they??? Otherwise how will we ever know which player is good under pressure and which player is not???