Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[Majin]

Been watching wrestling since 1989, grew up on Bret Hart, Sting, Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat, Cactus Jack, etc. Was into ECW before most people knew it even existed. Biggest period of wresting fandom for me was the attitude era, was a fan of The Rock long before it was cool to be a Rock fan back when the majority of wrestling fans were swinging off of DX's nuts. Knew enough to know that WWE were just ripping off ECW, even if they made awesome television. And even though I don't watch it as frequently anymore, still know enough to know that the WWE is as good now as it has been in ages. Boring matches my arse, again, Taker/Michaels 2 is easily one of, if not the greatest wrestling match in history. Rey Mysterio has been putting out consistent quality matches for longer than you can count, with everyone he's matched up against. People coming through like Daniel Bryan and Kaval are both incredible workers showcasing some of the most unique and exciting wrestling offense available today, as well as people like Evan Bourne. Just because John Cena works with a specific moveset doesn't mean wrestling is boring. The attitude era for now is dead and buried, and as great as it was at times, trying to claim it was so much better than it is nowadays is laughable bollocks, for every Rock/Austin back then you had a Mean Street Posse or a Kurrgan. For every classic Mankind or Rock promo/segment you got you had Mae Young ****ting a hand out of her gash or HHH ****ing a fake corpse. The peaks may have been greater than they are now but the lows were way lower than they are now.

 

[Blaze 18]

My gripe with WWE is that it no longer has what really made it worth watching : divas who can wrestle, unpredictable and creative storylines, profanities and promos that are actually funny.

Anyways, screw that. I am happy that Kane is finally getting what he deserves; he has never really been given his due, in my opinion. I have not watched wrestling for quite sometime - can someone please give me a quick update ? Who are the current champions ?

 

[sledger]

It is not just the storylines - the matches themselves are boring. A John Cena match is so freaking predictable : he starts off well, gets beaten up, does a five knuckle shuffle, attitude adjustment, pinfall.

We should not be comparing the WWE with TNA; the former has always been a couple of classes above. But, the PG rating has undeniably made a difference to the show : the verbal battles, which used to be the life and soul of the successful attitude era, are almost non-existent; the diva matches are far less interesting. Heck, even names of moves/superstars have had to be changed : FU to attitude adjustment, legend killer to viper, stfu to stf.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you guys been watching WWE ? If you think the Nexus storyline is great, I can only imagine that you have seen little, if anything, of the WWF attitude era.

Lolololol. Despite being a fan since about 1996, I'm sick to death of hearing how great the attitude era is. Granted it had it's moments but it served up more dross than good imo. Funny as it was on occasion. So many people look back on that period with Rose tinted glasses. I would say at this precise moment in time storylines and creativity in general are as good if not better than the attitude era (barring the very end of the attitude between 2000-2001, which I don't really count as the attitude era anyway). The verbal battles are no worse than they ever have been, a lack of swearing/***ual references in no way adversely affects the quality. In fact, Cena, Jericho, HHH, Taker and so on are some of the best mic workers in teh WWE ever, let alone in the present. The move to PG hasn't changed the product as much as some might think, were it not so widely publicised I doubt so many people would have even noticed it. It certainly doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the product, but if you want to go back to seeing Mae Young give birth to a hand and various other crap like that, then sure, why not.

 

[masterblaster]

Hey sledger, did you see the video where a drugged Jeff Hardy shoots on CM Punk? Really petty for mine and very poor from Jeff Hardy and Matt Hardy. Both of them come across as real losers in that video.

 

[Blaze 18]

Lolololol. Despite being a fan since about 1996, I'm sick to death of hearing how great the attitude era is. Granted it had it's moments but it served up more dross than good imo. Funny as it was on occasion. So many people look back on that period with Rose tinted glasses. I would say at this precise moment in time storylines and creativity in general are as good if not better than the attitude era (barring the very end of the attitude between 2000-2001, which I don't really count as the attitude era anyway). The verbal battles are no worse than they ever have been, a lack of swearing/***ual references in no way adversely affects the quality. In fact, Cena, Jericho, HHH, Taker and so on are some of the best mic workers in teh WWE ever, let alone in the present. The move to PG hasn't changed the product as much as some might think, were it not so widely publicised I doubt so many people would have even noticed it. It certainly doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the product, but if you want to go back to seeing Mae Young give birth to a hand and various other crap like that, then sure, why not.

Well, if you feel that the current storylines and creativity are better than ever, then let us just agree to disagree. It is possible that I am looking back at that period with rose tinted glasses, but that is primarily because of how bad it has become - again, my opinion.

As for John Cena, he is not even fifty percent of what the Rock was, be it on the mic or in the ring. He was good when he had that rapper gimmick, but his marine gimmick is just so excruciatingly boring to watch. It annoys me no end how WWE try to make him out to be some sort of superman - how many of the greats has he made tap out again ?

Chris Jericho is tremendous on the mic, but compare the promos he did back then to the ones he does now and you will know what the problem with the PG rating is.

 

[GIMH]

Two points:

1. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hulk Hogan - these beat all the top guys all the time too. Because they were the top face. As is Cena, as does Cena. See? And he has a submission finisher, hence why he wins with it. What use would a top face be if he didn't overcome the odds, and his finisher never worked??
2. Jericho's promos are a class above his old ones, they are much better thought out, more believable, and intelligent. It is widely accepted that Jericho's 07-10 work is comfortably the best of his career.

Still, welcome to the thread, always good to have some debate round here, normally only happens around Mania time or when manee is posting a lot

 

[sledger]

Hey sledger, did you see the video where a drugged Jeff Hardy shoots on CM Punk? Really petty for mine and very poor from Jeff Hardy and Matt Hardy. Both of them come across as real losers in that video.

Yes, I agree entirely. Scraping the barrell stuff.

 

[Jono]

Lol, did Cena have to change the name of his finishers?

Can't help but think this was all because of Linda McMahon's senate campaign.

 

[sledger]

Yeah, agree on the Jericho promos.

RE: The comparison between Cena and the Rock, I think there is very little to be gained from doing so. Personally I don't think Cena is a great deal different from the Rock in terms of ability, only in style. Besides, were to to base what makes a good wrestler in the pro-wrestling business there is only so much you can judge on in ring ability. The Rock for example, is far inferior to the likes of Shelton Benjamin or Juve Guerrera in terms of ring work. To suggest they are his equal is lunacy. Both Cena and Rock are serviceable wrestlers whose characters and ring work gets them over, and this is what sells. I have no problem watching a Cena match, I find them amongst the most interesting, as although the technical ability is often not the best, the psycology and selling on display are very good. Furthermore, it's pointless to say he's not the Rock, because nobody is quite frankly, nor ought they try to be.

 

[sledger]

Lol, did Cena have to change the name of his finishers?

Can't help but think this was all because of Linda McMahon's senate campaign.

It probably had something to do with it, but does anyone really care that much? Cena's finisher probably ought to have been renamed as soon as his program with Lesnar ended, calling it the FU was an amusing parody of the F5, but it seemed a bit lost ever since.

 

[Blaze 18]

Two points:

1. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hulk Hogan - these beat all the top guys all the time too. Because they were the top face. As is Cena, as does Cena. See? And he has a submission finisher, hence why he wins with it. What use would a top face be if he didn't overcome the odds, and his finisher never worked??
2. Jericho's promos are a class above his old ones, they are much better thought out, more believable, and intelligent. It is widely accepted that Jericho's 07-10 work is comfortably the best of his career.

Still, welcome to the thread, always good to have some debate round here, normally only happens around Mania time or when manee is posting a lot

1. When was the last time John Cena lost a match "fair and square" ? The match against Batista a couple of years ago at Summerslam ? No wait - he lost one to Shawn Michaels on Raw, too.

Rock and Stone Cold did lose matches without the opponent having to cheat. They certainly did not win virtually every single match.

Overcoming the odds is fine, but it has also got to be believable. When Triple H was made to tap out, John Cena was nowhere close to being "the top face". I hate the fact that far better wrestlers have been made to job to him : Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Kane, Edge, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho - heck, I would even add Randy Orton to that list. And yes, one of his finishers is a submission move; but why cannot the match end in a pinfall after he does his Fu ? Of course, the fact that his moveset consists of five (crap) moves does not help.


2. Widely accepted ? I will take your word for it.

Thanks for the welcome

 

[GIMH]

Sorry, but name me a match Rock & Stone Cold lost 'fair and square' as top face? The only one that immediately comes to mind is when Austin lost to HHH at No Way Out 2001, which was almost a fluke win anyway and played into his whole 'desperation' storyline which led to him turning heel.

Every time one of them lost the title, it was through shenanigans. Faces aren't supposed to lose cleanly if they are at the top of the card, otherwise it becomes meaningless.

And Cena wasn't 'top face' when he made HHH tap out but he became it throughout that year, because HHH put him over massive. That's how you make stars in wrestling. Cena beats all these guys because he's the top guy.

And he doesn't 'win' every match, if he did he wouldn't have been in Nexus, wouldn't have lost the title, etc etc etc. Yes, these defeats aren't 'clean' but as I said, Rock and Austin didn't lose clean either; the only time Rock lost the title cleanly as a face was his defeat to Brock where he put him over massive - and that's the reason why it put Brock over so massive.

The five-move thing is wrong as well, no offence but I cbf to get into it as I've done it to death here, I think it's one of those things neither side will ever really budge on, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

Can't help but think this was all because of Linda McMahon's senate campaign.

Gee, thanks Napoleon...

 

[Blaze 18]

Sorry, but name me a match Rock & Stone Cold lost 'fair and square' as top face? The only one that immediately comes to mind is when Austin lost to HHH at No Way Out 2001, which was almost a fluke win anyway and played into his whole 'desperation' storyline which led to him turning heel.

Every time one of them lost the title, it was through shenanigans. Faces aren't supposed to lose cleanly if they are at the top of the card, otherwise it becomes meaningless.

And Cena wasn't 'top face' when he made HHH tap out but he became it throughout that year, because HHH put him over massive. That's how you make stars in wrestling. Cena beats all these guys because he's the top guy.

And he doesn't 'win' every match, if he did he wouldn't have been in Nexus, wouldn't have lost the title, etc etc etc. Yes, these defeats aren't 'clean' but as I said, Rock and Austin didn't lose clean either; the only time Rock lost the title cleanly as a face was his defeat to Brock where he put him over massive - and that's the reason why it put Brock over so massive.

The five-move thing is wrong as well, no offence but I cbf to get into it as I've done it to death here, I think it's one of those things neither side will ever really budge on, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.

Didn't Stone Cold lose to the Rock at Wrestlemania 19 when he was a face ? Also a first blood championship match to Kane ?

His limited moveset is not really his fault - it is the WWE team that has to work on it. I remember he was awesome in his first match : YouTube - The WWE debut of John Cena

Another thing that irks me is the number of WWE titles he has won - nine of them. The Rock and Stone Cold had only thirteen between them.

Okay, I accept I am not a huge John Cena fan - you must have already figured that out by now

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, he was a face at mania 19 but he wasn't the top face, and that was all about Rock finally doing it. And the first blood was anything but clean. Shenanigans all over the show.

I don't think the title thing is that bad _ Cena has won all his in the two title era. And he has won them over a six year period, longer than either of the other two.

 

[sledger]

Wasn't the Kane thing a botch anyway?

 

[GIMH]

I've heard in some places it was but find it hard to believe personally given the attire he was wearing and the stips.

 

[sledger]

Haha, yeah I guess that's true. Reminds me of the Inferno matches of old when you'd get a guy wearing full body attire against a guy in just trunks. Yeah, wonder who's winning this one...

 

[Blaze 18]

This was apparently a botch. I was miffed when I heard that.

 

[masterblaster]

Two points:

1. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hulk Hogan - these beat all the top guys all the time too. Because they were the top face. As is Cena, as does Cena. See? And he has a submission finisher, hence why he wins with it. What use would a top face be if he didn't overcome the odds, and his finisher never worked??
2. Jericho's promos are a class above his old ones, they are much better thought out, more believable, and intelligent. It is widely accepted that Jericho's 07-10 work is comfortably the best of his career.

Still, welcome to the thread, always good to have some debate round here, normally only happens around Mania time or when manee is posting a lot

Agree completely on Chris Jericho. The man cemented himself as an all time great during his most recent run with the WWE. How are you finding his DVD? I got my copy about a month ago and thought the documentary was excellent. The selection of matches was pretty stellar too.

I can watch his match with Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania 19 over and over again. One of the best Wrestlemania matches of all time. His ladder match against Shawn in 2008 was pretty stellar as well as was his match against Rey Mysterio at Extreme Rules in 2009.