Best ever ODI bowler

[vcs]

I don't know. Pak usually play better against India than they play against other teams.

AWTA. I'm very happy to have avoided Pakistan and Australia in the group stages. Hopefully we won't have to play them at all.

 

[Faisal1985]

Pakistan is yet to win a match against India in ODI World Cups. I guess it's India 6 - Pakistan 0 till now in ODI World Cups, IIRC (or 7-0, or 5-0...doesn't matter really).

And yeah, outside of World Cups they used to play better against India - but not any more. I guess that period started roughly with Miandad's last-ball-six-match and ended roughly around the time when Ganguly was appointed captain of the Indian side for the first time.

Not really before i think Pak used to be quite dominant now they are far from dominant but put up great fights.

The champions trophy game..Indian team was loaded with top players....but i agree that the ODI team that we have right now is far from a threat to India in terms of cricketing strength but nerves play a huge role in Indo Pak contests...


Sometimes i just feel that the 2 teams not playing each other is good in a sense that when they meet in a series on a neutral venue its a battle.....

 

[Blaze 18]

Pakistan is yet to win a match against India in ODI World Cups. I guess it's India 6 - Pakistan 0 till now in ODI World Cups, IIRC (or 7-0, or 5-0...doesn't matter really).

And yeah, outside of World Cups they used to play better against India - but not any more. I guess that period started roughly with Miandad's last-ball-six-match and ended roughly around the time when Ganguly was appointed captain of the Indian side for the first time.

4-0.

It does tend to get overstated, though, as Pakistan's overall ODI record against India is 69-45, if I recall correctly. Pakistan have always raised their game against India, and have got the better of India in head-to-head battles; but you could make a fair case for India being the better side overall.

 

[ankitj]

4-0.

It does tend to get overstated, though, as Pakistan's overall ODI record against India is 69-45, if I recall correctly. Pakistan have always raised their game against India, and have got the better of India in head-to-head battles; but you could make a fair case for India being the better side overall.

You mean currently and not over-all, I guess?

 

[akilana]

currently they're.. but not overall.

 

[Blaze 18]

You mean currently and over-all, I guess?

Yes, certainly. That India are a better side currently goes without saying.

 

[Blaze 18]

currently they're.. but not overall.

You could make a case for India being the better ODI side overall. If you toss in India's shared Champions Trophy victory in 2002 and five Asia Cups to Pakistan's one, it is certainly close. You could make a case for Pakistan, certainly, but it surely is not as clear-cut as some would lead you to believe.

 

[akilana]

You could make a case for India being the better ODI side overall. If you toss in India's shared Champions Trophy victory in 2002 and five Asia Cups to Pakistan's one, it is certainly close. You could make a case for Pakistan, certainly, but it surely is not as clear-cut as some would lead you to believe.

I'd agree if they both won same number of matches. Pakistan won 24 more matches than India.

 

[ankitj]

Over the entire history, Pakistan have been the stronger team. It's so obvious that you don't know where to begin the argument form.

 

[smash84]

You could make a case for India being the better ODI side overall. If you toss in India's shared Champions Trophy victory in 2002 and five Asia Cups to Pakistan's one, it is certainly close. You could make a case for Pakistan, certainly, but it surely is not as clear-cut as some would lead you to believe.

Overall (even in ODIs)?? I am not too sure about that. Pak team before Miandad's last ball six was always competitive but after that occassion (1986) till about 2000 Pakistan were very dominant in head to head encounters IIRC. There was hardly much competition. Then in 2000s India had the upper hand but despite having a much much superior team in terms of batting resources (and probably even bowling and fielding) India's performance fell short of what it should have been IMO.

I'd agree if they both won same number of matches. Pakistan won 24 more matches than India.

That is a HUGE difference.

Over the entire history, Pakistan have been the stronger team. It's so obvious that you don't know where to begin the argument form.

I would agree with it somewhat. Although I think that the beginning date would be around 1986. Before that there was not as much of a difference between the two sides. In fact India had had the better of Pakistan quite a few times before that Miandad six (finals in Australia, Sharjah). By the way we are talking only about ODIs here.

 

[vcs]

What are the win-loss records? Is 24 matches such a big deal?

India in the late '80s won a really important ODI tournament in Australia, I remember and were considered one of the best ODI teams in the World. They've also won (shared) a Champions Trophy. Both teams have won Asia Cups and their WC record is pretty similar. Both have won a triangular series in Australia, Pakistan in the 90s and India in 2008. Pakistan ahead maybe in Sharjah. I think it's fairly close.

 

[smash84]

What are the win-loss records? Is 24 matches such a big deal?

India in the late '80s won a really important ODI tournament in Australia, I remember and were considered one of the best ODI teams in the World. They've also won (shared) a Champions Trophy. Both teams have won Asia Cups and their WC record is pretty similar. Both have won a triangular series in Australia, Pakistan in the 90s and India in 2008. Pakistan ahead maybe in Sharjah. I think it's fairly close.

I think 24 matches is a decent number consider they have played around 120 matches.

 

[smash84]

What are the win-loss records? Is 24 matches such a big deal?

India in the late '80s won a really important ODI tournament in Australia, I remember and were considered one of the best ODI teams in the World. They've also won (shared) a Champions Trophy. Both teams have won Asia Cups and their WC record is pretty similar. Both have won a triangular series in Australia, Pakistan in the 90s and India in 2008. Pakistan ahead maybe in Sharjah. I think it's fairly close.

Pakistan also won the Nehru cup in India which had 5 or 6 teams. Plus Pak and India squared up quite a bit in Sharjah where Pak definitely had the better of India.

 

[vcs]

Oh, OK, Pakistan lead the H2H alone by 24? Didn't know that, yeah that's an appreciable lead. Thought there was a difference of around 24 in the overall W/L records. But H2Hs aren't the sole means of comparing two teams.

 

[smash84]

Oh, OK, Pakistan lead the H2H alone by 24? Didn't know that, yeah that's an appreciable lead. Thought there was a difference of around 24 in the overall W/L records. But H2Hs aren't the sole means of comparing two teams.

Obviously head to head is not the sole means of comparison but I think that even if W?L ratio is taken into account Pak should be ahead (although I have not done the analysis in this regard). Pakistan has been **** since 05 hence people tend to forget that they were quite good before that and very good in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Blaze 18]

I'd agree if they both won same number of matches. Pakistan won 24 more matches than India.

You are talking about head-to-head matches. Like I said, there is no doubt whatsoever that Pakistan have been a better side in head-to-head matches; by overall, I meant major achievements and trophies.

Major trophies

World Cups : India 1, Pakistan 1

Champions Trophy : India 1, Pakistan 0

Asia Cup : India 5, Pakistan 1


India also won a world tournament in Australia shortly after winning the World Cup.

 

[smash84]

You are talking about head-to-head matches. Like I said, there is no doubt whatsoever that Pakistan have been a better side in head-to-head matches; by overall, I meant major achievements and trophies.

Major trophies

World Cups : India 1, Pakistan 1

Champions Trophy : India 1, Pakistan 0

Asia Cup : India 5, Pakistan 1


India also won a world tournament in Australia shortly after winning the World Cup.

What about all the Sharjah cups that India was beaten in Sharjah??? After all the matches in Sharjah were not only head to head but were usually played in tri-nation tournaments. There was also the 5 or 6 nation Nehru cup. Not to forget the 3 or 4 nation independence cup where Pak and SL ended up in the final (SL won it).

There was also a tri-nation ODI tournament in India at the start of 99 tour of India. SL were the third team. Pak also won that one.

Also India did win that series in Australia after the 1983 woirl cup by beating Pakistan in the final. Pak won the C&U tri-series in Australia in 97. Also in 99-00 when that series was played in Australia India were a distant 3rd after Pak and Aus. Pakistan may not have had as good a record in finals of tournaments but I do believe that they were generally a better side than India.

 

[Blaze 18]

What about all the Sharjah cups that India was beaten in Sharjah??? After all the matches in Sharjah were not only head to head but were usually played in tri-nation tournaments. There was also the 5 or 6 nation Nehru cup. Not to forget the 3 or 4 nation independence cup where Pak and SL ended up in the final (SL won it).

There was also a tri-nation ODI tournament in India at the start of 99 tour of India. SL were the third team. Pak also won that one.

Also India did win that series in Australia after the 1983 woirl cup by beating Pakistan in the final. Pak won the C&U tri-series in Australia in 97. Also in 99-00 when that series was played in Australia India were a distant 3rd after Pak and Aus. Pakistan may not have had as good a record in finals of tournaments but I do believe that they were generally a better side than India.

The C&U tri-series win by Pakistan in 1997 does not cancel out India's win in Australia after the World Cup because India won a tri-series in Australia in 2008.

If you are going to be counting every mama-papa series played in Sharjah then that is your prerogative. If you want to nit-pik you can throw in the fact that Pakistan have never beaten South Africa in an ODI series; India managed to do that earlier this year with a few of their first choice ODI players missing.

It is a never-ending debate - just like any other India vs Pakistan debate. I have no inclination to get into one. Like I said, you could make a fair case for either of the two sides; my post was just a reply to Akilana, who misunderstood my post.

 

[ankitj]

You are talking about head-to-head matches. Like I said, there is no doubt whatsoever that Pakistan have been a better side in head-to-head matches; by overall, I meant major achievements and trophies.

Major trophies

World Cups : India 1, Pakistan 1

Champions Trophy : India 1, Pakistan 0

Asia Cup : India 5, Pakistan 1


India also won a world tournament in Australia shortly after winning the World Cup.

ODI trophy titles are over-rated. A single final wins you the trophy and given the volatile nature of limited over cricket, often undeserving teams can win trophies. Quite rightly therefore, ICC ratings don't give any team any extra points for winning finals of a trophy, while they do give extra points for winning a test series.

 

[Blaze 18]

That is what makes cricket interesting. Otherwise there would be no point in playing a match; might as well hand the trophy to the better side on paper.