*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Matt79]

If I said stats-wise Ponting was better than Tendulkar but there is an argument for Tendulkar, but generally along the lines of aesthetics, it wouldn't be trolling? Hard to believe. It's a statement that is bound to get people arguing.

No. I'll try to say this in small words because there seem to be a few people who find this hard to grasp:

If someone expresses an opinion they honestly believe, regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong, reasonable or daft, so long as they are not being abusive to other posters, bringing up off topic stuff to derail a thread, or otherwise breaking forum rules, they are not trolling. Wrong (in your opinion) /= trolling. There are no sacred cows, be they Warne, Tendulkar, Sobers, Lillee, or Imran. Your free to vigorously disagree with someone. Discussion and argument is what we want, just not abuse.

 

[JBMAC]

You need to remember that Bodyline was specifically set up by Jardine and with approval of MCC to stop Bradman. The graph above does show the effectiveness of that but what Test Batsman would not kill for Bradman's average as illustrated?

 

[ankitj]

Back to Warne vs Murali


Since home/away argument was raised for the value of wicket analysis I did. So I did that for Warne and Murali for all away countries. Left out AUS and SL. What is away for one is home for another and they play different oppositions in these venues. In other 8 nations, here's how they stand (bolded the discount factor that is superior):

[B]Country	Murali	Warne[/B]
Ban	97.4%	143.9%
Eng	61.9%	74.6%
India	126.4%	117.5%
NZ	70.7%	75.5%
Pak	86.7%	111.6%
SA	85.7%	74.2%
WI	89.3%	183.4%
Zim	134.4%	81.4%

In Ban Murali does better, in Zim Warne does better. Leaving aside those two minnows, of the remaining six countries, Murali emerges better in 4 countries (Eng, NZ, Pak and WI) and Warne better in 2 countries (Ind and SA).

Make what you can of it. I for one fail to see how Warne can be declared winner of the contest!

 

[vcs]

Back to Warne vs Murali


Since home/away argument was raised for the value of wicket analysis I did. So I did that for Warne and Murali for all away countries. Left out AUS and SL. What is away for one is home for another and they play different oppositions in these venues. In other 8 nations, here's how they stand (bolded the discount factor that is superior):

[B]Country	Murali	Warne[/B]
Ban	97.4%	143.9%
Eng	61.9%	74.6%
India	126.4%	117.5%
NZ	70.7%	75.5%
Pak	86.7%	111.6%
SA	85.7%	74.2%
WI	89.3%	183.4%
Zim	134.4%	81.4%

In Ban Murali does better, in Zim Warne does better. Leaving aside those two minnows, of the remaining six countries, Murali emerges better in 4 countries (Eng, NZ, Pak and WI) and Warne better in 2 countries (Ind and SA).

Make what you can of it. I for one fail to see how Warne can be declared winner of the contest!

There is no "silver bullet" stat that can clearly separate Warne and Murali, however much you delve into it. Same goes for Tendulkar vs. Lara vs. Ponting. It always has, and always will, come down to personal preference.

 

[ankitj]

There is no "silver bullet" stat that can clearly separate Warne and Murali, however much you delve into it. Same goes for Tendulkar vs. Lara vs. Ponting. It always has, and always will, come down to personal preference.

I think there are That's what we got in the value of wicket thread.

And of course if you look at ODI record, there's considerable difference. Murali's 10 five-wicket hauls against Warne's 1. Murali's economy rate is 0.3 runs an over lower than Warne's which is HUGE considering that Murali played whole of the 2000s decade and on subcontinent pitches where 300+ scores are a regularity. So that's pretty convincing as far as I can see.

 

[vcs]

I think there are That's what we got in the value of wicket thread.

And of course if you look at ODI record, there's considerable difference. Murali's 10 five-wicket hauls against Warne's 1. Murali's economy rate is 0.3 runs an over lower than Warne's which is HUGE considering that Murali played whole of the 2000s decade and on subcontinent pitches where 300+ scores are a regularity. So that's pretty convincing as far as I can see.

No, there is no such thing.

ODI's, Murali's a long way ahead.

 

[Jono]

Yeah I don't think there's any real argument over ODIs.

 

[Ikki]

There is no "silver bullet" stat that can clearly separate Warne and Murali, however much you delve into it. Same goes for Tendulkar vs. Lara vs. Ponting. It always has, and always will, come down to personal preference.

I think the difference between their home and away records is close to a silver bullet stat.

 

[Ikki]

Sorry 8ankitj I had to edit my post, I thought you had posted their averages in different countries.

FTR, Warne has neutral tests against Pakistan. You should probably include those. Also, Warne in WIndies is misleading if you don't know about his career. He had 2 series there; one great and one bad right in the middle of his injury period. In fact, that is the only series home or away where Warne does badly against them.

 

[ankitj]

No, there is no such thing.

Well 7% difference counts for nothing? Or you have a deeper argument?

 

[Ikki]

Yeah I don't think there's any real argument over ODIs.

Will disagree with this. Take away the smaller nations in Murali's ODI figures and it's pretty much Warne's.

Warne will always garner a spot in my ODI for being a force of nature in World Cups.

 

[Jono]

Okay I take that back. Obviously there is an argument.

 

[vcs]

Well 7% difference counts for nothing? Or you have a deeper argument?

Yep, it's no big deal in my book. Just like the 3 or so difference in their bowling average is no big deal for me (not so while comparing some other bowlers). Just like Lara's average of 52 odd doesn't make him any lesser than some 55+ players.

 

[Ikki]

Well 7% difference counts for nothing? Or you have a deeper argument?

You've ignored the argument brought up in your original thread re home and away conditions.

Also, in the above list you haven't put Aus or SL - both which Warne I'm sure comes ahead.

 

[Jarquis]

Okay I take that back. Obviously there is an argument.

 

[ankitj]

You've ignored the argument brought up in your original thread re home and away conditions.

Also, in the above list you haven't put Aus or SL - both which Warne I'm sure comes ahead.

I just didn't think that handful of matches of one bowler will be comparable to tons of matches of the other. And also they play different oppositions in those two countries.

And I only pulled away data. Don't have it handy to compare it immediately.

 

[tooextracool]

Will disagree with this. Take away the smaller nations in Murali's ODI figures and it's pretty much Warne's.

Warne will always garner a spot in my ODI for being a force of nature in World Cups.

Thats only if you don't consider ER's which to me is just as important as the ODI average. Warne was nothing more than a good ODI bowler, certainly nothing special. Warne was being tonked around while playing mostly in an era where 250 scores were above par. The guy was a match winner, but if you wanted someone to come in and stem the scoring I know I'd have been turning to pretty much every other Australia bowler in the attack.

 

[Ikki]

Thats only if you don't consider ER's which to me is just as important as the ODI average. Warne was nothing more than a good ODI bowler, certainly nothing special. Warne was being tonked around while playing mostly in an era where 250 scores were above par.

Warne was not a cheap bowler, but he took wickets by the bucketload when on. And considering his teammates, that's something.

The diff between Warne and Murali's figures wrt the top ODI sides is very little. The WC performances of Warne will always put him over the top for me.

Although I am pretty clear on why people would pick Murali (incredibly tight and cheap + longevity). Personally, I take the wicket-taking to the ER as the difference between a Warne and a Murali in a match is about 3-4 runs.

 

[Ikki]

I just didn't think that handful of matches of one bowler will be comparable to tons of matches of the other. And also they play different oppositions in those two countries.

And I only pulled away data. Don't have it handy to compare it immediately.

Yet Warne plays in Eng 22 tests and Murali 6 and that's comparable. Warne plays a handful of tests against B/Z and Murali plays much more than that. It's pretty obvious Warne did better overall away from home. And at home his record is incredible considering the conditions.

 

[Jono]

What is Warne's World Cup record vs. Murali's?

Seem to remember Murali doing really well in 2007.