*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Migara]

Murali or Warne; who would have fared better with a Bodyline field?

Bodyline and spinners cannot occur in the same sentence.

 

[Prince EWS]

Wasn't being all that serious, tbh. Just interesting how a thread on two of the best slow bowlers ever has devolved into a 'discussion' on the relative merits of long-gone fast bowlers and a type of field only really useful to them.

As opposed to my deadly serious post championing Warne's bouncer.

Seems to happen a lot with us - you make an amusing sarcastic joke to which I reply with a one of significantly poorer quality, at which point you tell me that you weren't being serious, ironically missing the fact that I wasn't either. Dire stuff.

 

[Top_Cat]

As opposed to my deadly serious post championing Warne's bouncer.

Seems to happen a lot with us - you make an amusing sarcastic joke to which I reply with a one of significantly poorer quality, at which point you tell me that you weren't being serious, ironically missing the fact that I wasn't either. Dire stuff.

 

[Jono]

Prince TC now has Top Cat in his avatar again.

He is unstoppable!

 

[Top_Cat]

Indeed. Remember I've been using my brain for years. Some posters' in this thread are still brand new.

 

[vcs]

Murali or Warne; who would have fared better with a Bodyline field?

Hard to say, Warne wasn't too good against the shorter delivery. I reckon Murali takes this one with his windmill swipes.

 

[aussie]

If you have been watching cricket in SL you'll realize. SL has one of the lowest batting averages in 2000s, after NZ IIRC. There's always spin, some times the ball boomerangs as well due to humidity. Apart from SSC, there are no flat tracks in SL.

The series from SRI i have seen live would include:

- AUS tours in 99, 04
- ENG tours in 2001, 03 & 07
- SA tours in 2000, 2004, 2006 (2000 i only saw parts of it)
- WI Tour in 2001 in full
- IND tours in 08 & 2010

I'll admit compared to test in India & PAK. I have seen a few more pace-bowler friendly pitches in SRI in those series. Most tests @ Kandy always seem to have something the seamers Kandy 99 (1st day) & parts of Galle 99, Kandy 04 (1st day), Kandy 01 vs ENG & WI, Kandy 07 (Day 1). So most of it has been @ one ground. Otherwise in those series i have seen the pitches have been just as flat & unhelpul to the quicks as in IND or PAK.

What ever the cause the over rates by then was poor. It was poor not due to laziness, but it proved a purpose for them. When the batsmen were going well their overrate dropped even more.

Laziness from who?. Certainly not those WI bowlers. It was as i said, just the circumstances of their times. Their was no bouncer rule & the quality of the bowling meant batsmen also weren't able to smash the ball to boundary at rate of modern bats.

I do agree with you that they can own Indian line up once in a while. But we have seen the same Indian line up owning great fast bowling attacks too. So it's a two way exercise.

I dont know of any series especially in ENG, AUS, SA where India's middle-order of the 90s/2000s owned any top pace attacks over the course of an entire series.

Rather once in a while that Indian line-up scored runs againts great fast-bowling attacks.

So i dont see it as two way exercise. If you saw how the quicks in the series SA 2000, AUS 04, ENG 06, SA 08, 10 had the Indian batsmen when they where on top. The far superior Windies great pace attack would have won in India quite easily.

Once again you have not watched cricket in SC. Indian pitches of 80s and 90s spun from Day 1, and became dusty minefields by day 4. Current tracks are umpteen times flatter than them. FFS, Raju, Chauhan, Kumble and Harbhajan etc averaged 20 - 23 on those tracks, because the bounce was unpredictable. Indian fans here will tell you that Indian pitches has lost their "dustbowl" status, and that is taking a heavy toll on their spinners.

Indian pitches spun from day 1 in the 2000s era too FFS.

I can remember day 1, 2 @ Mumbai 01 when AUS toured alot of spin was seen. Soo too the the majority of that famous 2001 series.

- England where bowled out before tea on day 1 @ Mohali 2001. Thanks to big spin on day 1


- Day 1 @ Chennai 04 vs Again, when Kumble spun out AUS in the last

- Delhi 05 on day 2, when Murali produced that special spell to route India. Sure you of ppl haven't forgotten that. I saw that live.

Maybe a few more from others series, but none coem to mind ATM.

I conceed to a degree though, more roads have appeared in the last couple years (3-4) in tests in India. But dustbowls pop up ever so often, so i dont see it as calamity for IND ATS.

Was it? Can you remember Ponting beaten on the pull by Kumble on th 3rd day dur to low bounce?

Which series?.

That is one positive point I agree on Marshall, Roberts, Ambrose, Garner and Holding. Walsh had an awfully chest action, but did not break down. Ian Bishop broke down very early. But bowlers like Patterson and Croft won't last long with their unorthodox actions.

Ye probably.

 

[Migara]

The series from SRI i have seen live would include:

- AUS tours in 99, 04
- ENG tours in 2001, 03 & 07
- SA tours in 2000, 2004, 2006 (2000 i only saw parts of it)
- WI Tour in 2001 in full
- IND tours in 08 & 2010

I'll admit compared to test in India & PAK. I have seen a few more pace-bowler friendly pitches in SRI in those series. Most tests @ Kandy always seem to have something the seamers Kandy 99 (1st day) & parts of Galle 99, Kandy 04 (1st day), Kandy 01 vs ENG & WI, Kandy 07 (Day 1). So most of it has been @ one ground. Otherwise in those series i have seen the pitches have been just as flat & unhelpul to the quicks as in IND or PAK.

Tis is the general malady of non-SC observers. Their motto is "If it isn't green, then it's flat". SL pitches spin viciously if the whether is dry and batting on them needs a special set of skills. That's why non-SC batsmen are found wanting on them. Galle has been known for it's spin, but since tsunami, the pitch has undergone a metamorphosis due to seeping of salt in to it. Now it helps fast men too. Kandy was well known for it's movement. SSC 10 years back was the paciest pitch in SL, now regrettably is dead by all means. P Sara can throw out any thing, a batting beauty, or seamers paradise or a spinners paradise as latest test between SL and IND. Those are the four test grounds SL has and 3 / 4 are not flat. RPS has been stripped of it's test status due to ultra flat pitch (note that it has been stripped of status unlike the road at Adelaide Oval). Saying SL pitches are flat due to poor help for seamers is nothing short of a farce. BTW there had been some memorable spells from fast men in SL, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Vaas, Ambrose and Hadlee all bowled very well here. It's that others are not good enough to take advantage of the conditions.

Laziness from who?. Certainly not those WI bowlers.

Did I imply such? Why don't you read the post properly?

It was poor not due to laziness, but it proved a purpose for them

It was as i said, just the circumstances of their times. Their was no bouncer rule & the quality of the bowling meant batsmen also weren't able to smash the ball to boundary at rate of modern bats.

Less boundaries should mean a higher over rate. But still the over rate was abysmal. That was a well planned trick to conserve energy. Because they blew up the batting line ups, the slowness was un noticable. But in today's context, over rates matter, and they cannot hide any where with poor over rates.

I dont know of any series especially in ENG, AUS, SA where India's middle-order of the 90s/2000s owned any top pace attacks over the course of an entire series.

Your comment was

But if Donald/Pollock & McGrath/Dizzy/Kasper, Steyn/Morkel/Ntini, Hoggard/Flintoff had owned them & won/drew series in India. I see no reason why Marshall/Holding/Garner/Roberts etc couldn't do the same if they had to bowl to them.

And you were talking about bowling in India. Now don't change goal posts. In India Indian batsmen basically dominated every attack that was thrown at them at least half the times they met.

Rather once in a while that Indian line-up scored runs againts great fast-bowling attacks.
So i dont see it as two way exercise. If you saw how the quicks in the series SA 2000, AUS 04, ENG 06, SA 08, 10 had the Indian batsmen when they where on top. The far superior Windies great pace attack would have won in India quite easily.

That I am sceptical about. They would have done it easily in West Indies, but Sehwag and co are very good HTBs. (SRT and Dravid will be good anyhow) Even the best struggles to dislodge them at home. I would think much would change when they bowl with the SG on those pitches.

Indian pitches spun from day 1 in the 2000s era too FFS.
I can remember day 1, 2 @ Mumbai 01 when AUS toured alot of spin was seen. Soo too the the majority of that famous 2001 series.
- England where bowled out before tea on day 1 @ Mohali 2001. Thanks to big spin on day 1
Day 1 @ Chennai 04 vs Again, when Kumble spun out AUS in the last
- Delhi 05 on day 2, when Murali produced that special spell to route India. Sure you of ppl haven't forgotten that. I saw that live.
Maybe a few more from others series, but none coem to mind ATM.

Now you are speaking about isolated incidents. But it was the norm in 80s and 90s. We would be enumerating pitches that did not spin on the first day compared to spinning ones in this decade.

I conceed to a degree though, more roads have appeared in the last couple years (3-4) in tests in India. But dustbowls pop up ever so often, so i dont see it as calamity for IND ATS.

Dust bowl was the typical pitch of 80s and 90s. Anything other was an anomaly. Now dust bowl in India becoming an anomaly.

Which series?.

1998. (I think it was either Ponting or Steve Waugh)

 

[Burgey]

Tis is the general malady of non-SC observers. Their motto is "If it isn't green, then it's flat". SL pitches spin viciously if the whether is dry and batting on them needs a special set of skills. That's why non-SC batsmen are found wanting on them.

I haven't seen much SL cricket tbh, but I thought over the past decade or so when we've been there we batted OK. I may be wrong, but I cbf looking up the scores either.

 

[Migara]

I haven't seen much SL cricket tbh, but I thought over the past decade or so when we've been there we batted OK. I may be wrong, but I cbf looking up the scores either.

I assume you are an Aussie supporter, and yes Aussies had some good score on them, but they were labored efforts, that tested the batting lineup to the limit.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah fair enough. I don't think we've had much cricket from SL telecast into here. Tests anyways.

 

[aussie]

Tis is the general malady of non-SC observers. Their motto is "If it isn't green, then it's flat". SL pitches spin viciously if the whether is dry and batting on them needs a special set of skills. That's why non-SC batsmen are found wanting on them. Galle has been known for it's spin, but since tsunami, the pitch has undergone a metamorphosis due to seeping of salt in to it. Now it helps fast men too. Kandy was well known for it's movement. SSC 10 years back was the paciest pitch in SL, now regrettably is dead by all means. P Sara can throw out any thing, a batting beauty, or seamers paradise or a spinners paradise as latest test between SL and IND. Those are the four test grounds SL has and 3 / 4 are not flat. RPS has been stripped of it's test status due to ultra flat pitch (note that it has been stripped of status unlike the road at Adelaide Oval). Saying SL pitches are flat due to poor help for seamers is nothing short of a farce. BTW there had been some memorable spells from fast men in SL, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Vaas, Ambrose and Hadlee all bowled very well here. It's that others are not good enough to take advantage of the conditions.

Ha. Firslty i'm very much ardent SC obsever of the condtions in all 3 of the major nations.

SL pitches as i already said, in the many series i have highlighted i saw in your country in the last decade have offered help to quicks more often than conditions in PAK & IND for sure.

A good cricket wicket is where fast-bowlers can generally have consistent bounce int he early phases of the match. Batsmen can trust that boubce & play shots, while at the end it deteriorates on the final days & the spinners come into play. Such a pitch is Brisbane.

SRI pitches are not like that in general. You get alot of turners as you highlighted more than anything, sometimes seamers are around & a few roads as well. So SRI conditons are a bit more rouded than IND & PAK, but fast bowlers in general have to work hard for wicket in those conditions. No opposition ever goes to SRI thinking their fast-bowlers are going to enjoy bowling on those pitches.


I wouldn't call Adelaide a "ultra flat pitch" at all like the premadasa or Antigua recreation ground. Its a good batting wicket. No test @ that ground like the premedasa ever had a score of 952.

The difference between the Adelaide oval road to a SC road. Is that the bounce is usually very consistent in Adelaide. Fast bowlers just get no seam movement & the turn is very slow.

Did I imply such? Why don't you read the post properly?

Ye my mistake. Misread.

Less boundaries should mean a higher over rate. But still the over rate was abysmal. That was a well planned trick to conserve energy. Because they blew up the batting line ups, the slowness was un noticable. But in today's context, over rates matter, and they cannot hide any where with poor over rates.

Typo again. I meant that less boundaries aided in slowing off the over-rates.

But by no means again was "well planned trick" to conserve energy haha, come on now. You seriously telling me running in bowling 6 bowlers is less tiring than bowling 6 full or good lenght deliveries??. Surely not.

It was just circumstances of the time. All those windies bowlers where smart enough, if the played in modern times & had to adjust to the over-rate rules they would still take wickets & would get through their over-rates, although at times they certainly could be fined.

AUS win in SA 09, couple Ashes test in 09 with allpace attacks. They weren't fined for over-rates. (Although it did happen @ Perth 08)

- South Africa for much of 90s had all pace attacks alot of the time. I dont recall too much over-rate problems. This recent times as well with a 5-man pace attack was fine as well:

4th Test: South Africa v England at Johannesburg, Jan 14-17, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

Your comment was


And you were talking about bowling in India. Now don't change goal posts. In India Indian batsmen basically dominated every attack that was thrown at them at least half the times they met.

That I am sceptical about. They would have done it easily in West Indies, but Sehwag and co are very good HTBs. (SRT and Dravid will be good anyhow) Even the best struggles to dislodge them at home. I would think much would change when they bowl with the SG on those pitches.

I'm not changing the goal-post. That starting part of the post was in reference to this point of yours:

I do agree with you that they can own Indian line up once in a while. But we have seen the same Indian line up owning great fast bowling attacks too. So it's a two way exercise.

Which is clearly not true overseas nor in India they few times top pace attacks came to India since Ind became a force @ home in the 90s with Tendy & co.

So what are you saying. If McGrath/Gillespie/Kasper in 04, Donald/Pollock & co in 2000, Steyn/Ntini/Morkel 08/2010 (whichever combination), Hoggard/Flintoff 06. Won/drew series in India againts that much vaunted middle-order & they where clearly below the quality of the Windies pace-attack. Do you have doubts that the Windies pace-attack would struggle to win in India if they had to bowl to Tendy & co??.


Sehwag would be owened. AUS recently with Hilfenhaus & Johnson kept him quiet on flat IND pitches with the bouncer tactic. Plus we already know he is very average when its pace bowler friendly pitch. I could imagine what Marshall & co would do to him.

Azharuddin couldn't handle the pace when WI toured IND in 94/95 & 87/88.

Ganguly was never good againts pace.

Tendy & Dravid are the only ones who would stand up consistently. With Laxman being hit & miss. But i'd back the windies quicks to win most of the battles bowling in IND vs Tendy & Dravid.

Now you are speaking about isolated incidents. But it was the norm in 80s and 90s. We would be enumerating pitches that did not spin on the first day compared to spinning ones in this decade.

Dust bowl was the typical pitch of 80s and 90s. Anything other was an anomaly. Now dust bowl in India becoming an anomaly.

Agree to disagree here. We can leave it at that.

1998. (I think it was either Ponting or Steve Waugh)

Nah dont remember ATM.

 

[aussie]

I assume you are an Aussie supporter, and yes Aussies had some good score on them, but they were labored efforts, that tested the batting lineup to the limit.

Yea SRI 04 was a battle of attrition really for the batsmen. Rate that win in SRI 04, much higher than AUS 2-1 win in India.

 

[honestbharani]

Nah, WI bowers were a class above Larwood.

Class doesn't matter for intimidatory into the body short pitch bowling with 5 guys behind on the on side though? The class you are talking about is totally different to the "class" needed to execute bodyline. And what makes you so sure that Windies would have been better at executing this line of attack than those guys? At least with them, there is a proof of execution, Windies never did.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I assume you are an Aussie supporter, and yes Aussies had some good score on them, but they were labored efforts, that tested the batting lineup to the limit.

Yeah, from memory in 04 (??) we batted a lot slower than what we had been in Tests either side of that series, and were much more patient; a combination of quality bowling and a different mindset in playing in the subcontinent.

 

[Migara]

Class doesn't matter for intimidatory into the body short pitch bowling with 5 guys behind on the on side though? The class you are talking about is totally different to the "class" needed to execute bodyline. And what makes you so sure that Windies would have been better at executing this line of attack than those guys? At least with them, there is a proof of execution, Windies never did.

Body line needs, pace, accuracy, stamina and patience. WIndies attack had all these qualities better than Larwood. Can you think a 1Zaheer Khan doing a body line or Shaun Tait doing a body line? No. Zaheer is too slow for that albeit being accurate, and Tait is too erratic for it albeit being very fast. The qualities needed for successful bodyline does not different from what you should have for orthodox attack.

 

[Jono]

Have Australia toured SL since 2004?

That was a great series.

 

[Teja.]

Pace is not as important to bodyline as it would have been due to the introduction of protective gear, IMHO. If I had to pick a bowling line up for bowling bodyline for bowling to Bradman tommorrow, I'd prefer bowlers who were extremely accurate and had an accurate bouncer first and foremost.

My picks would be:-
John Snow
Glenn Mcgrath
Shoaib Akthar
Curtly Ambrose

Helps that the bottom three have awesome yorkers too to bowl the surprise ball in case Bradman tries to move too far away to the left. Don't know wether Snow had a good yorker or not.

 

[JBH001]

IIRC some comments from Ian Chappell, I think he did.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Nah, WI bowers were a class above Larwood.

So, are we assuming that the Bradman of the 1930's will be facing the West Indies of the 70's and 80's? Or is Bradman granted some ability to move with the times and actually implement techniques and equipment available in the 70's and 80's that might've made him a better player?

70's and 80's Larwood would probably be a class above 30's Larwood too, given the advances in the game during that period.