Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

[G.I.Joe]

People obviously don't remember the Tendulkar vs Richards ODI thread.

 

[Ikki]

IIRC Lara was actually pretty bad against the great attacks apart from Australia's. If you do a similar comparison Ponting will have the best record against those bowlers.

 

[aussie]

Some very good points, although I was not comparing Trumper to anyone, more trying to suggest contemporaries of trumper comparing him to the next generation of batsman

Ye i know. Just thought i bring up a few points.

 

[robelinda]

Someone asked earlier in this thread what Viv's numbers were in the WSC years, well in the 'tests' he scored 475 runs over both seasons at an average of 43.18, only one century. Havent looked up the one dayers, there were so many of them.

 

[robelinda]

In the WSC one dayers Viv scored 629 runs over both seasons, average of 28.59.

 

[smash84]

The intention of the poster is clear - "No one (especially Viv Richards) is as great as my idol - Sachin Tendulkar. And let me prove that using statistics".

The problem with statistics is NOT that they don't tell the truth, the problem is that they can be filtered any which way you want, to prove (or disprove) a point.

Let me give you an example. The poster who started this thread -- an obvious Sachin fanboy -- has made excellent "observation" about Richard's modest statistics against Pakistan and Australia.

Now, going by the same token (or logic), here are some of Sachin's stats against the greatest fast bowlers of his era like Glenn McGrath, Allan Donald and Wasim Akram, in both Tests as well as ODIs.

In Tests, Sachin averages a modest 36.77 against Australia when McGrath plays.

It is very noticeable that most of his Test runs/stellar performances against Australia have invariably come only when McGrath was absent, basically against second rate (good, but not great) fast bowlers like Brett Lee, Mitchell Johnson, Kasper, Damien Fleming, Paul Riefel etc. Whenever McGrath is absent from the Australian attack, Sachin's average almost doubles (averages nearly 70 against Australia when McGrath is absent!!!).

Even McGrath's bunny - Lara - does better than Sachin, against McGrath.

Against other great fast bowlers whom he faced at the peak of their powers in Test Match cricket, Sachin averages a pathetic 32 against South Africa whenever Allan Donald has played.

I really don't know whether to include Wasim Akram here since India-Pak never played a series for nearly 10 years (between 1989 to 99 for political reasons) during which Akram was at his absolute peak. But Akram bowled very very well in 1999 when they played each other. In any case, Tendulkar averages an equally pathetic 32 against Pakistan whenever Wasim Akram has played.

Once again, he revelled against the respective teams (South Africa and Pakistan) when these bowlers were absent.

Against the 3 greatest fast bowlers of his era, whom he faced in more than one Test series, McGrath, Donald and Akram, Sachin has scored 1719 Test runs at a modest average of 34.3 (compared to his career average of 56).

Even Lara, who is considered suspect against pace bowling, averages significantly better against the exact same bowlers (3116 Test runs at 40.46). Lara has scored more runs, at a better average, and a better strike rate than Tendulkar against both McGrath and Donald in Tests.

Here is the clincher:

Of all the Test series Sachin has played against these great fast bowlers (McGrath,Donald,Akram), more than 7 series including home and away, only once did he average more than 50 in a series!, that too just barely, when he averaged 50.66 against McGrath in 2000-01 series at home in India. Even more stunning is the fact that only once was he India's best batsman in all the Test series against these bowlers (so much for him being the batting mainstay of India against great attacks). This is the very definition of being over-rated.

The only truly great fast bowler Sachin has had some success against is Curtly Ambrose. But Sachin never faced Ambrose (or the West Indian attack) at their peak. He played only one Test series against Ambrose, that too in 1997, on the dead pitches of the Carribbean (4 of the 5 Tests ended in draws). Ambrose was 35 years old and couple of years away from retirement back then.

I can't recall a single full Test series of Sachin where his performance was similar to Richard's performance against Imran Khan & co. in Pakistan in 1980-81 (Windies batting total never crossed 300 in the entire series and Richards scored 350+ runs at an average of 70+, more than twice the average (and runs) of the next best batsman, no other top-order West Indian batsman averaged above 30 in that series! The team's batting hung almost entirely on Richard's shoulders). And yet Sachin is hyped to have had no batting support whatsoever for a major part of his career, while Richards succeeded only because of the support of Haynes and Greenidge. What an irony.

Amazingly, the trend of Tendulkar's poor stats against great fast bowlers continues in ODIs. In spite of all the batsmen-favoured rules and pitches, Sachin's stats against these bowlers in ODIs are equally pathetic! A measly average of 31 (2222 runs @ 31.64) in ODIs after playing 70+ ODIs against McGrath/Donald/Akram. Only 2 of Sachin's ODI hundreds came against these bowlers (both against McGrath in the sub-continent). In 26 ODI innings against Donald, Sachin managed to cross fifty just 3 times!

Not just his average, even his strike-rate suffers against these bowlers (especially against Donald).

Once again Lara beats him hands down (2969 runs at an average of 44.81 against McGrath/Donald/Akram).

Since most people (especially Sachin fanboys) here seem to swear by stats, above stats clearly prove that Sachin was a cropper against great fast bowlers, and heavily cashed in against modest or less-than-great attacks.

Contrastingly, Richards averages a healthy 47.61 in Tests against Dennis Lillee and Imran Khan (so much for Lillee-Imran effect on him). If you include Hadlee too, Richards averages a very decent 46.8. Interestingly Richards has scored more runs, at a better average against these bowlers (Imran,Lillee,Hadlee) than Gavaskar. Here is the link to the stats:
Batsmen stats against Lillee, Imran and Hadlee

Richards, at least, had a couple of towering "away" series against both Imran (at his peak in 1980-81) and Lillee (in 1978-79). Even his performances against peak Lillee+Thommo in 75-76 after he was asked to open the batting in Test match cricket (elevated from batting position 5 or 6) facing the fast bowlers when they were at their freshest and fastest, and the ball was it's most new, were very good. He has had at least one high scoring series (300+ runs) with a 50+ average against each of Imran, Lillee and Hadlee.

As the links show, the above stats are true. I am not exaggerating them by any means. They conclusively prove Sachin as a modest-attack bully in all forms of the game .

Moral of the story: With the probable exception of Bradman, you can always filter stats to show that your favourite (or your favourite's nearest rival) cricketer is the best (or is over-rated) in the game.

Indeed a most impressive first post.

 

[Cevno]

From Most accounts i have read and heard Viv Richards had a perceived Weakness against quality spin.

There is no way we can tell for sure how he would have done against the likes of Murali and Warne but Qadir did have Some success against him.

Though having said that,he was a great great player and he is rated highly very correctly.

 

[robelinda]

From Most accounts i have read and heard Viv Richards had a perceived Weakness against quality spin.

There is no way we can tell for sure how he would have done against the likes of Murali and Warne but Qadir did have Some success against him.

Though having said that,he was a great great player and he is rated highly very correctly.

Agree. Viv was a destroyer of fast bowling, as one would expect- he faced it every day in the nets! Even Murray Bennet troubled Viv, albeit briefly. I wouldnt criticize any sub continent batsman for being better against spin, its just how it is. Sachin plays pace well, obviously. Viv was murderous. The most attacking I have seen Sachin play fast bowling was the 1st test in 2001 when he made 155 in SA, Sehwag's first test. He really went after them that day, great knock. For people who havent watched Viv, his whole career he was a dominant force at the crease, he would attack at the slightest opportunity, there was no better sight than fast bowlers trying to knock Viv cloth cap off, and failing every time. Never once got hit.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Didn't Rodney Hogg hit him flush in the head one day, and Viv didn't flinch.

 

[smash84]

Didn't Rodney Hogg hit him flush in the head one day, and Viv didn't flinch.

I have read something similar. I can't recall who the bowler was though.

 

[Teja.]

Didn't Rodney Hogg hit him flush in the head one day, and Viv didn't flinch.

Hogg hit Viv on the head, Viv didn't flinch and then, hit the next ball for six, iirc

Actually, Rodney said,

"I bounced a cricket ball off his cheek and waited for him to fall down.


He just carried on chewing gum and hit my next ball for six, 24 rows back."

 

[vic_orthdox]

Hogg hit Viv on the head, Viv didn't flinch and then, hit the next ball for six, iirc

Actually, Rodney said,

"I bounced a cricket ball off his cheek and waited 4 him 2 fall down.


he just carried on chewing gum and hit my next ball for six, 24 rows back."

Should note that Rodney's not one to shy away from a bit of embellishment and exaggeration. But yeah, that's the story I've heard quite a bit.

 

[Altaican]

Didn't Rodney Hogg hit him flush in the head one day, and Viv didn't flinch.

Hogg did hit him. The next ball, another bouncer went for a six. The next 6 overs of Hogg went for 59 runs.

Patterson nearly got him (knocked his cap off) in that Jamaica-Leeward Islands match in 1985. The next ball, another bouncer by Patterson went for the boundary again. The third ball, another bouncer, another hook and caught by Walsh at long-leg.

The next battle between Viv and Patterson when Lancashire took on Somerset (in 1986?), again another brutal bouncer-hook battle, 2 overs of Patterson cost 33 runs. Viv went on to score a century.

 

[Top_Cat]

Should note that Rodney's not one to shy away from a bit of embellishment and exaggeration. But yeah, that's the story I've heard quite a bit.

Emotional guy is our Rodney. Cousin played with him at Woodville many years ago (obviously), said in fading light at training he sledged Hogg for bowling half rat. Every ball thereafter was in Rodney's half.

Cousin was 15 years old at the time and in the side for his bowling but Hogg didn't care and Mark got taught a big, big lesson.

 

[robelinda]

Hogg did hit him. The next ball, another bouncer went for a six. The next 6 overs of Hogg went for 59 runs.

Do you know which test this was in, out of curiosity? Adelaide test? Ive got every WI v Aus test on dvd and dont recall seeing it, but i think it was probably in the 81/82 season, or possibly 79/80? I want to look it up and see it!!!!!

 

[Teja.]

Emotional guy is our Rodney. Cousin played with him at Woodville many years ago (obviously), said in fading light at training he sledged Hogg for bowling half rat. Every ball thereafter was in Rodney's half.

Cousin was 15 years old at the time and in the side for his bowling but Hogg didn't care and Mark got taught a big, big lesson.

 

[robelinda]

I have a feeling it was an MCG test, up and down bounce, Hogg was lethal in the late 70's, i'm looking it up now!

 

[Son Of Coco]

Viv's only over-rated if you never saw him play.

(I have a feeling I've said this before)

 

[Altaican]

Do you know which test this was in, out of curiosity? Adelaide test? Ive got every WI v Aus test on dvd and dont recall seeing it, but i think it was probably in the 81/82 season, or possibly 79/80? I want to look it up and see it!!!!!

This was in the MCG in 1979-80 Aus-WI series. Here is the link to the scorecard of the specific match:
2nd Test: Australia v West Indies at Melbourne, Dec 29, 1979 - Jan 1, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

Here is a reference to that event. Search for "hogg" in the below article:
Viv Richards: bowler killer | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com

 

[robelinda]

Yep I have seen that before, in the footage hey dont even do a reply of the ball that hit Viv, such was the casual nature of Viv, he just walks away and stares at Hogg, and smacks him all over after.