*Official* Netherlands vs Spain (World Cup Final)

[pasag]

Bye South Africa, thanks for being had by us - The Irish Times - Mon, Jul 12, 2010

y/n?

 

[marc71178]

As far as I'm aware, a referee can't bring play back and red card someone. They're supposed to leave the field immediately after committing the offence. He can't really play the advantage and then book Puyol for an obvious red card offence either. He'd kinda be making up the rules as he goes along.

I remember back in Euro 96 a ref did play on and go back and send someone off (an Italian if my memory serves me correctly) about 2 minutes later when the ball went dead, but the rules may have changed since then.

Also, again not sure of any changes, but the rule used to be that if someone did a Suarez/Kewell but the ball still went in, it was a goal and a yellow card for unsporting behaviour (ie being a failure at cheating)

 

[GIMH]

As far as I'm aware, a referee can't bring play back and red card someone. They're supposed to leave the field immediately after committing the offence. He can't really play the advantage and then book Puyol for an obvious red card offence either. He'd kinda be making up the rules as he goes along.

I suspect Webb was just taking a common sense approach and overlooking the incident completely, on the grounds that it was the option Holland would have preferred with Robben clean through on goal. You'd have to bend the framework of the rules a little too much to do anything else besides giving an immediate free kick and red card, which caused a lot of hassle to the ref who sent of Jens Lehmann in another high-profile final. I can't believe that he would have simply failed to see such an obvious foul.

Given a couple of alleged straight reds he overlooked, I'm happy to assume he'd have yellowed it if he'd seen it. He's making the rules up as eh goes along much more by overlooking it than he'd have been by booking Puyol afterwards.

The fact is, rose has stated in his annoying 'I know everything about football even though I didn't know Man U were a big club in 2004' way that the ref played advantage as though it's definitive, and he didn't. Assume whatever we want, but if you play advantage, you signal advantage, and he didn't.

 

[Uppercut]

I remember back in Euro 96 a ref did play on and go back and send someone off (an Italian if my memory serves me correctly) about 2 minutes later when the ball went dead, but the rules may have changed since then.

Also, again not sure of any changes, but the rule used to be that if someone did a Suarez/Kewell but the ball still went in, it was a goal and a yellow card for unsporting behaviour (ie being a failure at cheating)

Just to be clear, I'm not 100% on this. I know when you take the FIFA course in refereeing you're explicitly told that a player has to be dismissed immediately for a red card offence. It could be a relatively recent development, or referees in the World Cup could be instructed differently. But in any case, it's extremely rare to see a referee play an advantage then bring play back and red card someone.

 

[marc71178]

Yeah, it's been a while since I gave up refereeing (best part of 15 years) so it wouldnt surprise me if the guidelines (as opposed to the rules) have changed since then!

 

[Uppercut]

Given a couple of alleged straight reds he overlooked, I'm happy to assume he'd have yellowed it if he'd seen it. He's making the rules up as eh goes along much more by overlooking it than he'd have been by booking Puyol afterwards.

The fact is, rose has stated in his annoying 'I know everything about football even though I didn't know Man U were a big club in 2004' way that the ref played advantage as though it's definitive, and he didn't. Assume whatever we want, but if you play advantage, you signal advantage, and he didn't.

Well, what I'm saying is perhaps that he didn't technically play advantage- which wouldn't have been allowed- instead he may have just deliberately neglected to notice a foul for the benefit of the aggrieved team. Common sense, you could call it. Puyol had already been booked, so bringing play back and giving a yellow wasn't an option either.

 

[GIMH]

It's certainly not common sense to leave a booked player on the field who does what Puyol did! Especially given the actual reason the Dutch went down to ten men in the end.

 

[Uppercut]

Well if I'm right about the immediate dismissal guidelines, he only really had two options- red card+immediate free kick, or nothing at all. Given that Robben stayed on his feet, it's reasonable to assume he'd have preferred the latter, so that's what Webb gave him. That seems like common sense to me.

Seriously tough spot to make a decision, in any case. As I mentioned before, the ref who sent Lehmann off in the Arsenal-Barca cup final came under even more criticism than Webb has. Damned if you do...

 

[GIMH]

I understand what you mean, I just don't agree that it's common sense. No need to go round in circles though.

 

[Uppercut]

*shrugs*

Either decision would have been fine with me, really. If I were a referee I'd probably have given the free kick and red card. It's funny how much criticism referees get for their decisions on incidents that could go either way. When there's a close lbw it's generally accepted that both out and not-out are fair calls and the umpire gets some benefit of the doubt. Not so in football.

 

[marc71178]

The big irony in all of it is that it was Robben and he didn't go down for the foul!

 

[roseboy64]

Think Uppercut said what I wanted to say. Sorry if it sounded snooty but as you've seen before I'm more than willing to accept other views if they're sensible.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Well if I'm right about the immediate dismissal guidelines, he only really had two options- red card+immediate free kick, or nothing at all. Given that Robben stayed on his feet, it's reasonable to assume he'd have preferred the latter, so that's what Webb gave him. That seems like common sense to me.

Seriously tough spot to make a decision, in any case. As I mentioned before, the ref who sent Lehmann off in the Arsenal-Barca cup final came under even more criticism than Webb has. Damned if you do...

Uppercut's right.

You definitely can't play advantage from a red card tackle: you have to give the decision and send the man off... even if the ball does the end up in the net, you can't allow the goal. That wasn't an advantage, it was "no foul", which I think is totally fair enough.

All told, I thought Webb had an excellent game: I can even understand the yellow card for de Jong's karate kick... the way I read it, there was no intent to go through the other player's chest. Reckless, yes, but that is only a yellow in itself.

 

[Kweek]

Iniesta red?
missed corner at the end?

 

[sledger]

Get over it.

 

[Kweek]

I am over it, but you can't say Webb had a good game, that's madness.

 

[sledger]

His game was hardly flawless, but it was hardly the worst reffing performance I've ever seen. To suggest it in any way cost Holland the game is crazy.

 

[Kweek]

missing a corner...with 2 minutes to go till penalties is pretty costing...

 

[sledger]

So is failing to create/take any decent chances for the entire match.

 

[Kweek]

Yes...still the moment that outdid us had an air of failure from the referee over it.