Players with misleading averages....

[Migara]

I see that and I raise you:

Laxman has only averaged over 39 once in a series involving McGrath and Warne.

One was his debut series or the one that he was made to open.

KP will have wet dreams about what Laxman did to Aussies in the series he batted well

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yep, and one of Pietersen's two series was his debut series too. How's that relevant?

 

[Migara]

Yep, and one of Pietersen's two series was his debut series too. How's that relevant?

Pietersen played where he's comfortable in playing, while Laxman was made to open, which he's uncomfortable in his debut, and following series.

 

[Ikki]

Earlier I said that there isn't much difference between Hayden and the likes of Tendulkar, Lara and Ponting and yet I put Hayden a barrier underneath them; likewise with the Pietersen & Sehwag scenario, with Sehwag being only one barrier beneath Pietersen. I'd range the classes between players like this:

Top Class (Obvious Alltime Greats): Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Steve Waugh
2nd Class (Arguable Alltime Greats): Hayden, Kallis, Dravid, Pietersen
3rd Class (Quality Players, Not Alltime Greats): Sehwag, Gambhir, Inzamam, Chanderpaul, Hussey, Sangakkara, Smith, Flower, Thorp, Kirsten
4th Class (Inbetween Quality and Good): Jayawardene, Yousuf, Clarke, Langer, Gilchrist, Khan, Laxman, Martyn, de Villiers
5th Class (Bit better then decent): Prince, Strauss, Cook, Collingwood, Gayle, Trescothick, Vaughan, Sarwan, Gibbs, Ganguly, Jayasuriya, Katich, Amla
6th Class (Decent / Regulars in their side): Samaraweera, Fleming, Attapatu, Dilshan, Bell, Richardson, Astle
7th Class (Utility or Mediocre): Boucher, Flintoff, McKenzie, Vettori, Butcher, Bashar, Hussain, McCullum, Akmal

Pietersen = Kallis and Dravid? In his dreams. The latter two should be in the "obvious all-time great" category. They're probably in the top 2 of Test batsmen their countries have produced. And Sehwag, frankly, is every bit as good as Hayden and if he continues will probably be better.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

1. Laxman averages 45.7 against both McGrath and Warne. When you remove that early matches where he was forced to open the innings (which was not his natural position), average is more than 50.

2. Laxman did it over a decade in may series, unlike KP who did it within 2 years of time in only two series.

3. Murali has been made to look very ordinary by Sidhu and Azhar earlier. KP was a non-match to them how they handled Murali.

4. KP only had the upper hand against Murali in 2 tests. Murali had the upper hand in 4 tests and numerous ODIs as well.

5. This was the first time I found out English conditions are spin friendly!

6. Sangakkara has performed poorly only in ENG & WI (Avg 30.5 & 34 respectively) while Pietersen has performed poorly in SL, SAF and PAK (25.2, 25.3. 33.5 respectively). Sanga's lowest is much better than KP's lowest. That's why he has the edge.

Pietersen's debut series was in the Ashes against McGrath and Warne - didn't affect him whatsoever, so I don't see why you would deduct Laxman's stats.

Sangakkara has a poor record in 2 countries, compared to Pietersen having 3 poor records, but yet Pietersen averaged over twice as much against easily the best bowling combination of the generation McGrath & Warne. That alone completely negates any arguement about Sangakkara one less bad record then Pietersen.

Pietersen = Kallis and Dravid? In his dreams. The latter two should be in the "obvious all-time great" category. They're probably in the top 2 of Test batsmen their countries have produced. And Sehwag, frankly, is every bit as good as Hayden and if he continues will probably be better.

I'm overlooking the fact that one player is in form at the moment and the other isn't. Gilchrist was just as destructive as Sehwag at his peak (after 70 odd Tests, averaged 55 with s/r of 83 - 15 hundreds), but no one in the right mind would consider his batting alone on par with the likes of Dravid and Kallis.

 

[Ikki]

I'm overlooking the fact that one player is in form at the moment and the other isn't. Gilchrist was just as destructive as Sehwag at his peak (after 70 odd Tests, averaged 55 with s/r of 83 - 15 hundreds), but no one in the right mind would consider his batting alone on par with the likes of Dravid and Kallis.

But I didn't say Sehwag is on par with Dravid or Kallis. I said the latter two should be one rung up into obvious all-time greats with Sehwag up into arguable all-time greats.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

But I didn't say Sehwag is on par with Dravid or Kallis. I said the latter two should be one rung up into obvious all-time greats with Sehwag up into arguable all-time greats.

But then Hayden should be up there aswell. Didn't you once say that you rated Hayden amongst the top 3 openers of alltime? I reckon Gambhir will be a better batsman then Sehwag. Merely because I believe Gambhir will be allot more successful outside the subcontient then what Sehwag has been/will be. Hayden was successful inside and outside the subcontient.

 

[Migara]

Pietersen's debut series was in the Ashes against McGrath and Warne - didn't affect him whatsoever, so I don't see why you would deduct Laxman's stats.

That's because Pietersen played at #4 where he's batted since then, and Laxman batted at #1, (Oh, and his debut series was against McGrath and Warne as well IIRC) a thing he was rarely doing in FCC (who was #4/5). If you cannot appreciate that fact there's no point in continuing

Sangakkara has a poor record in 2 countries, compared to Pietersen having 3 poor records, but yet Pietersen averaged over twice as much against easily the best bowling combination of the generation McGrath & Warne. That alone completely negates any argument about Sangakkara one less bad record then Pietersen.

No it does not. Sangakkara played on far more bowler friendly wickets than Pietersen ever did against Warne and McGrath. KP played on roads of MCG, Adelaide and SCG compared to Darwin and Cairns. KP's performance against Warne and McGrath cannot be compared with that of Sanga because of this very fact. And given the way KP struggled on juicy pitches (that is with movement or spin, NZ, SL, SAF) he would be averaging much lower if he played in Cairns or Darwin, which have difficult pitches. And you conveniently forgot that KP failed against the second best bowling combination of the generation (Vaas and Murali) in SL which should have been easier situation to cope with.

 

[Ikki]

But then Hayden should be up there aswell. Didn't you once say that you rated Hayden amongst the top 3 openers of alltime? I reckon Gambhir will be a better batsman then Sehwag. Merely because I believe Gambhir will be allot more successful outside the subcontient then what Sehwag has been/will be. Hayden was successful inside and outside the subcontient.

Really, when? I consider Hayden higher than most here and put him in many lists to spite people , but I am not sure how far high I'd put him. I think he probably is 1/2 of Australia's all-time opening partnership, but I don't think that makes him as good as Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara, Dravid, Waugh, et al.

Gambhir looks class too, but many questions yet.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

That's because Pietersen played at #4 where he's batted since then, and Laxman batted at #1, (Oh, and his debut series was against McGrath and Warne as well IIRC) a thing he was rarely doing in FCC (who was #4/5). If you cannot appreciate that fact there's no point in continuing

Um, no. Pietersen batted at 5 in his debut Test and walking in at 21-5 (with all of the other top-line batsman already dismissed) on a minefield would be equally as difficult as batting in a position which you are not used to. What's more difficult? Batting at 21-5 or 0-0? You tell me.

No it does not. Sangakkara played on far more bowler friendly wickets than Pietersen ever did against Warne and McGrath. KP played on roads of MCG, Adelaide and SCG compared to Darwin and Cairns. KP's performance against Warne and McGrath cannot be compared with that of Sanga because of this very fact. And given the way KP struggled on juicy pitches (that is with movement or spin, NZ, SL, SAF) he would be averaging much lower if he played in Cairns or Darwin, which have difficult pitches. And you conveniently forgot that KP failed against the second best bowling combination of the generation (Vaas and Murali) in SL which should have been easier situation to cope with.

Gimme a break. Lords 2005 was a tougher pitch to bat on then anything Sangakkara ever faced vs McGrath & Warne and yet Pietersen scored two half-centuries in that match.

 

[Cevno]

But then Hayden should be up there aswell. Didn't you once say that you rated Hayden amongst the top 3 openers of alltime? I reckon Gambhir will be a better batsman then Sehwag. Merely because I believe Gambhir will be allot more successful outside the subcontient then what Sehwag has been/will be. Hayden was successful inside and outside the subcontient.

Hayden averages 42.68 outside Australia.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

While Sehwag averages 41.42 outside the whole of the subcontinent.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

So despite removing all of sehwag's strongest points and hayden's only one he is not far behind.And whats more is his strike rate is better by more than 20 than hayden.

And as for Gambhr ,do not think he will surpass Sehwag's impact ever.

 

[Cevno]

He's done well in Australia, India, West Indies & New Zealand. Record not so good in Pakistan, Saffa & SL. Hardly 'can't score in foreign conditions'. And the only place he has toured twice in Tests is India, where he went a lot better second time round than first. So let's see how he goes on his next visits to these places.

Funny how I always read bollocks on this forum about Ponting being short of great for his record in India, but Pietersen's record in Australia against Australia (when they were arguably the best team in the world) is casually ignored.

Now someone call me a fanboy and we can all go home happy

Foreign?

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Hayden averages 42.68 outside Australia.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

While Sehwag averages 41.42 outside the whole of the subcontinent.
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

So despite removing all of sehwag's strongest points and hayden's only one he is not far behind.And whats more is his strike rate is better by more than 20 than hayden.

And as for Gambhr ,do not think he will surpass Sehwag's impact ever.

Hayden averages 50 inside and 50 outside the subcontient, compared to Sehwag who averages 60 inside and 41 outside. As a country, Australia is as big as the subcontinent, so the conditions in Australia from venue to venue are as about as likely to vary as subcontinent conditions.

 

[Migara]

Um, no. Pietersen batted at 5 in his debut Test and walking in at 21-5 (with all of the other top-line batsman already dismissed) on a minefield would be equally as difficult as batting in a position which you are not used to. What's more difficult? Batting at 21-5 or 0-0? You tell me.

So what? KP did it once, while Laxman did it 12 times. what is more difficult then? coming 1t 25-5 or opening against top class fast bowling pair when you have never opened?

Now what is the more difficult from a #4 to bat at #5 or #5 to bat at #1?

Gimme a break. Lords 2005 was a tougher pitch to bat on then anything Sangakkara ever faced vs McGrath & Warne and yet Pietersen scored two half-centuries in that match.

You can live with your delusions. Lahore pitch which Sanga batted was one of the most difficult, not to mention Akthar coming at you at 90-95 mph.

Now stop quoting one off occasions, because it will prove nothing. Look at the whole picture. Pietersen never played on Aussie grounds which were bowler friendly as Cairns or Darwin, and that's fact. What ever Pietersen played at home does not count because it's his home territory. If you want to add home pitches also, then SL pitches are much tougher to bat on, than English pitches. And guess what, Sanga's weaker side is playing spin, which SL pitches are well known to produce.

 

[Burgey]

I believe each of Tendulkar and Ponting's averages are inflated. Please feel free to discuss.

I'll come back and check on the discussion in seven years.

 

[Migara]

Hayden averages 50 inside and 50 outside the subcontient, compared to Sehwag who averages 60 inside and 41 outside. As a country, Australia is as big as the subcontinent, so the conditions in Australia from venue to venue are as about as likely to vary as subcontinent conditions.

Rubbish. Sub continent is the only place where you have a monsoon in cricket playing countries. The variability of conditions in India is much greater than that of Australia. India you have temperatures ranging from 5 - 40 ºC where you play cricket, and altitudes ranging from 0 - 4000m. Australia may be as big as or even bigger than India, but you can only dream about the variability of conditions that India has.

 

[Burgey]

Rubbish. Sub continent is the only place where you have a monsoon in cricket playing countries. The variability of conditions in India is much greater than that of Australia. India you have temperatures ranging from 5 - 40 ºC where you play cricket, and altitudes ranging from 0 - 4000m. Australia may be as big as or even bigger than India, but you can only dream about the variability of conditions that India has.

That's plain wrong, with respect. There's diversity (or at least traditionally was diversity) in both places.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

So what? KP did it once, while Laxman did it 12 times. what is more difficult then? coming 1t 25-5 or opening against top class fast bowling pair when you have never opened?

Now what is the more difficult from a #4 to bat at #5 or #5 to bat at #1?

Not as big of a difference as you are making it out to be and not as big of a difference where Laxman's poor stats should be overlooked. If a batsman bats at number 4 and walks in when the team is 2-0 then isn't he playing virtually as an opener? I mean, there is no real difference and if anything his under more pressure then what a normal opener would be. Making the transition from batting 4 to Opening isn't like being a professional Tennis player and then having to play in the EPL without any prior Soccer experience like you are making out.

You can live with your delusions. Faisalabad pitch which Sanga batted was one of the most difficult, not to mention Akthar coming at you at 90-95 mph.

Now stop quoting one off occasions, because it will prove nothing. Look at the whole picture. Pietersen never played on Aussie grounds which were bowler friendly as Cairns or Darwin, and that's fact. What ever Pietersen played at home does not count because it's his home territory. If you want to add home pitches also, then SL pitches are much tougher to bat on, than English pitches. And guess what, Sanga's weaker side is playing spin, which SL pitches are well known to produce.

Pfft, in the match that Sangakkara scored runs in Australia there was 1,000 runs scored in the first 2 innings' of the match and a combination of 6 bowlers from each side had 100+ runs conceeded against their names. Book in for bed and breakfast, tbh.

MCG pitch in the 06/07 wasn't a road either. England were cleaned up for 170 odd on the first day and Pietersen ended up throwing his wicket away because he was losing partners. England had Australia 5/70 odd at one point aswell before Hayden guided Australia to safety. The Brisbane pitch was cracked by the 3rd day, hence Pietersen's first-innings dismissal. Australia dominated in their second innings batting because England was completely demoralized, hence the match seemed like a runfest. Although the Adelaide and Perth pitches were definately flat.

Yeah, Sri Lankan pitches are harder to bat on then English pitches for the touring opposition not the home team, because they have to deal with Murali. Apart from Warne, no Sri Lanka batsman had to deal with anyone of the class of Murali. You also overlook the fact that English conditions mean that the bowlers get to use a duke ball which tends to swing around a bit more. Just because England's bowlers have been a bunch of bottlers for the best part of this decade does not mean that it is the easiest place on earth to bat.

 

[Cevno]

Hayden averages 50 inside and 50 outside the subcontient, compared to Sehwag who averages 60 inside and 41 outside. As a country, Australia is as big as the subcontinent, so the conditions in Australia from venue to venue are as about as likely to vary as subcontinent conditions.

The conditions in India vary a lot more than in Australia.

Just look at Mohali,Delhi and Mumbai.

As for the subcontinent as a whole Karachi is a lot different to Kandy for sure.Where is so much variation in Australia?

The most variation would perhaps be Brisbane to melbourne or Perth to Sydney.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

The conditions in India vary a lot more than in Australia.

Just look at Mohali,Delhi and Mumbai.

As for the subcontinent as a whole Karachi is a lot different to Kandy for sure.Where is so much variation in Australia?

The most variation would perhaps be Brisbane to melbourne or Perth to Sydney.

Actually, the pitches that are most similar in Australia are Brisbane and Perth and they are the furthest apart.

Brisbane - Green, Bouncy
Syndey - Spin
Melbourne - Green
Adelaide - Flat
Hobart - Flat, but overcast (ala English conditions w/o duke ball)
Perth - Bouncy