bagapath
International Captain
it is not a mistake. so dont worry. no need to changeMistakenly voted for Sobers, is there ne way to change my vote to Lara???
it is not a mistake. so dont worry. no need to changeMistakenly voted for Sobers, is there ne way to change my vote to Lara???
pointless use of a stat if ever I saw one.I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much. Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time
sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.It's very possible he would have been AFAIC. However, all we'll ever know is that it's possible.
To deny that it was possible would be foolish IMO. To say "it didn't happen and I don't care about any level below Test cricket" would be equally foolish; to say "Gavaskar got the chance, Richards didn't" is about all that makes sense.
That is not, of course, to say that one who considers Gavaskar > Richards is foolish, just to say that the idea that it's a clear-cut thing is foolish. Going either way is fair enough IMO.
Mushtaq Mohammad (Pakistan and Rest of the World):If you love your left handers then the 1970 Eng vs ROW series would have been one to watch (should have Test status for my liking)
Sobers dominating and Lloyd and Pollock amongst the runs
Rest of the World cricket team in England in 1970 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There will almost always be a statistical kink everywhere and you can find it if you look hard enough. They don't always have to prove anything unless one is looking for them to justify one's pre-decided position. Lilley's stats in Pakistan are a famous case in point.I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much. Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time
Kinda like people claiming Warne would have been a brilliant test captain.sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.
Yup. I have managed to remain a huge warne fan without needing to resort to these fantasies. what he has achieved is great enough that I dont have to add these "ifs" and "buts" to call him an all time champion.Kinda like people claiming Warne would have been a brilliant test captain.
Amidoinitright bagapath?
Because he was a much better batsmen. There are tens of thousands of people around the world who saw both of them bat and dozens who played against Sobers and watched Lara closely. The opinion is almost unanimous amongst this lot.
Sobers also faced Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Statham, Fazal Mahmood, Bedi, Benaud, Chandrasekhar, Gupte and Underwood. This is as least as impressive a group of bowlers as those faced by Lara.I'm going to put my reputation on the line here and say that Brian Lara was the greatest left-hander of all time. Better than Sobers.
Think of the great bowling attacks that Lara faced in his time, and compare them to Sobers. McGrath/Warne/Donald, et all were better than McKenzie/Davidson/Snow.
Sobers played 44 Tests in the West Indies and 49 away from home. Lara played 65 Tests in the West Indies and 66 away from home. As such, Lara played a higher proportion of his Tests at home.Also, Sobers played a lot of his cricket on flat Windies pitches, esp. in the post 1970 series against India and New Zealand, and even in the 1958 series vs. Pakistan, where he scored a mountain of runs.
Sobers' peak was not the late 1950's and early 1960's, but rather the period between 1966 and 1968. He averaged 103 in England in 1966, 114 in India in 1967 and 90 at home against England in 1968. All of these runs were made when he was the second best bowler in his team (after Gibbs) as well as the world's best fieldsman.Sure, Sobers peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s was probably as good as any batsmen in the history of the game barring Bradman, but Lara came back after his first peak and against the best bowling attacks in the world.
No, Sobers is rated more highly partly because he has a better record than Lara, but also and more importantly because he was a more consistent as well as a more brilliant batsman. As SJS observed, the vast majority of cricketers, journalists and fans who saw both men play regard Sobers as the greater batsman.I think that because Sobers played in more winning teams and because of his added brilliance as an allrounder, and because of the nostalgia of a time since past, that he is rated as better.
I think it's an injustice to Lara that some posters say that Sobers was much better.
AWTA.. I rate Lara the best batsmen I have seen but from most of the guys in the know who have seen both, Sobers was better.. How "much" better is a different question but I do think he was perhaps better by a decent enough margin...Sobers also faced Lindwall, Miller, Trueman, Statham, Fazal Mahmood, Bedi, Benaud, Chandrasekhar, Gupte and Underwood. This is as least as impressive a group of bowlers as those faced by Lara.
Sobers played 44 Tests in the West Indies and 49 away from home. Lara played 65 Tests in the West Indies and 66 away from home. As such, Lara played a higher proportion of his Tests at home.
Sobers averaged 66.80 in the West Indies and 50.73 away from home. Lara averaged 58.65 in the West Indies and 47.80 away from home. Sobers has both a better home AND a better away record than Lara.
Sobers' peak was not the late 1950's and early 1960's, but rather the period between 1966 and 1968. He averaged 103 in England in 1966, 114 in India in 1967 and 90 at home against England in 1968. All of these runs were made when he was the second best bowler in his team (after Gibbs) as well as the world's best fieldsman.
No, Sobers is rated more highly partly because he has a better record than Lara, but also and more importantly because he was a more consistent as well as a more brilliant batsman. As SJS observed, the vast majority of cricketers, journalists and fans who saw both men play regard Sobers as the greater batsman.
None of this is intended to denigrate Lara. It is not an insult to call someone the second best left hander in the history of the game. Most of those who consider Sobers to be his superior would probably agree that Lara is one of the ten best batsmen to ever play the game.
Even if the difference between them was minimal (which it isn't BTW) then as long as there's clarity there'll be a fair hike in a poll.I see that but i dont really understand y. In the end i will concede that Sobers is probably a better bat than Lara but by that much.
In New Zealand, not against. And it amounted to a single serious series.Sobers after all did average sumthin like 20 odd vs New Zealand of his time
Garfield is his name of course but it's plenty often shortened to Garry, never Gary.Why are you correcting people when it's not even his name?
No-one is calling Barry Richards a great Test cricketer because he did not get the chance to be one; that Sunil Gavaskar was is beyond question. However, Test cricket is not the only level of cricket that exists and it's quite fair in my book to consider Richards a better batsman (not Test batsman, batsman) than Gavaskar based on what cricket does exist.sunil gavaskar's great test record is a fact. so calling him a great test cricketer is fine. barry richards' test record is an assumption based on his excellent FC record. calling him an equally great test cricketer is stupid. so going either way is not fair. one way, the "gavaskar is a great" argument, is fair. there is no other way.
And Lara only came back for his second peak at the precise time that a large number of others had the exact same thing.I'm going to put my reputation on the line here and say that Brian Lara was the greatest left-hander of all time. Better than Sobers.
Think of the great bowling attacks that Lara faced in his time, and compare them to Sobers. McGrath/Warne/Donald, et all were better than McKenzie/Davidson/Snow. Also, Sobers played a lot of his cricket on flat Windies pitches, esp. in the post 1970 series against India and New Zealand, and even in the 1958 series vs. Pakistan, where he scored a mountain of runs.
Sure, Sobers peak in the late 1950s and early 1960s was probably as good as any batsmen in the history of the game barring Bradman, but Lara came back after his first peak and against the best bowling attacks in the world.
cool. my uncle thinks his friend is the greatest fast bowler of all time because he was a terror in the backyard games. he says first class cricket is not the only level of cricket. he considers him to be a better bowler (not test/FC bowler, bowler) than lillee and marshall combined. to each his own, I guess.No-one is calling Barry Richards a great Test cricketer because he did not get the chance to be one; that Sunil Gavaskar was is beyond question. However, Test cricket is not the only level of cricket that exists and it's quite fair in my book to consider Richards a better batsman (not Test batsman, batsman) than Gavaskar based on what cricket does exist.
Actually thats a more accurate statement than what you may thinkI feel sure we all know a cricketer we have played with at either first class or club level who were better players than some of the Test players running around at that time.Then due to career moves, marriage, new kids, job committments moved away from the game and did not reach their obvious potentialcool. my uncle thinks his friend is the greatest fast bowler of all time because he was a terror in the backyard games. he says first class cricket is not the only level of cricket. he considers him to be a better bowler (not test/FC bowler, bowler) than lillee and marshall combined. to each his own, I guess.
[B]Date Opponent Runs Bowl 1 Bowl 2 Bowl 3 Bowl 4 Bowl 5 Bowler 6[/B]
Oct-64 MCC 63 Price Thomson Dexter Titmus Hobbs
Oct-64 MCC 13 Price Thomson Dexter Titmus Hobbs
Nov-64 MCC 15 Brown Thomson Dexter Alan Cartwright
Nov-64 MCC 29 Brown Thomson Dexter Alan Cartwright
Feb-65 MCC 25 Brown Cartwright Dexter Alan Hobbs
Feb-65 MCC 0 Brown Cartwright Dexter Alan Hobbs
Dec-66 Australians 107 McK'zie Renneburg Hawke Simpson Vievers
Dec-66 Australians 12* McK'zie Renneburg Hawke Simpson Vievers
Dec-66 Australians 38 McK'zie Renneburg Watson Simpson Vievers
Dec-66 Australians 75 McK'zie Renneburg Watson Simpson Vievers
Dec-66 Australians 88 McK'zie Hawke Watson Hubble Cowper
Dec-66 Australians 65 McK'zie Hawke Watson Hubble Cowper
Aug-68 ROW XI 68 Pollock Hall Barlow
Aug-68 ROW XI 6 Pollock Hall Barlow
Aug-68 ROW XI 0 Pollock Hall Barlow
Aug-68 ROW XI 81 Pollock Hall Barlow
Jul-69 Windies 86 Roberts Shillingford Davis Sobers Gibbs
Jul-69 Windies 120* Roberts Shillingford Davis Sobers Gibbs
Aug-69 New Zealand 132 Collis Taylor Cunis Pollard Burgess Yuile
Jan-70 Aussies 29 McK'zie Connolley Gleeson Mallett
Jan-70 Aussies 32 McK'zie Connolley Gleeson Mallett
Feb-70 Aussies 140 McK'zie Connolley Gleeson Freeman
Feb-70 Aussies 65 Mayne Connolley Gleeson Freeman
Feb-70 Aussies 35 Mayne Connolley Gleeson Freeman
Mar-70 Aussies 81 McK'zie Connolley Gleeson Mayne
Mar-70 Aussies 126 McK'zie Connolley Gleeson Mayne
Jun-70 England 35 Snow Shuttleworth Ward Illingworth Underwood D'Oliviera
Jul-70 England 64 Snow Brown Greig Illingworth Underwood D'Oliviera
Jul-70 England 30 Snow Brown Greig Illingworth Underwood D'Oliviera
Jul-70 England 47 Snow Brown Greig Illingworth Underwood D'Oliviera
Jul-70 England 32 Snow Brown Greig Illingworth Underwood D'Oliviera
Jul-70 England 21* Snow Old Greig Illingworth Wilson D'Oliviera
Aug-70 England 14 Snow Old Lever Illingworth Wilson
Aug-70 England 14 Snow Old Lever Illingworth Wilson
Nov-70 MCC 224 Snow D'Oliviera Lever Illingworth Wilson
Dec-70 MCC 146 Willis D'Oliviera Lever Shuttleworth Underwood
Dec-70 MCC 23 Willis D'Oliviera Lever Shuttleworth Underwood
May-71 Pakistan 35 Imran Masood Pervez Intikhab
May-71 Pakistan 87* Imran Masood Pervez Intikhab
Jul-71 Indians 10 Prasana Venkatraghvan
Jul-71 Indians 45 Prasana Venkatraghvan
May-72 Aussies 73 Lillee Watson Gleeson Inverarity Hammond
May-72 Aussies 33 Lillee Watson Gleeson Inverarity Hammond
Jan-73 DH Robins XI 45 Willis Lever Brown
Jan-73 DH Robins XI 38 Willis Lever Brown
Feb-73 DH Robins XI 100 Willis Lever Brown Jackman Knight
Apr-73 New Zealand 102 Hadlee Collinge Howarth Pollard
Apr-73 New Zealand 24 Hadlee Collinge Howarth Pollard
May-73 New Zealand 87 Hadlee Hadlee Howarth Congdon
Nov-73 DH Robins XI 15 Snow Lever Shephard Woolmer
Nov-73 DH Robins XI 16* Snow Lever Shephard Woolmer
Nov-73 DH Robins XI 36 Snow Lever Shephard Gleeson
Nov-73 DH Robins XI 81 Snow Lever Shephard Gleeson
Dec-73 DH Robins XI 180 Snow Lever Shephard Close
Dec-73 DH Robins XI 59 Lee Lever Shephard Close Woolmer
Apr-74 MCC 189 Hendrik Jackman Knight Edmonds Ackfield
May-74 Indians 49 AbidAli Madan Lal Bedi Prasanna Venkat
Aug-74 Pakistan 9 Malik A. Iqbal Intikhab Mushtaq Wasim Raja
Aug-74 Pakistan 100 Malik A. Iqbal Intikhab Mushtaq Wasim Raja
Mar-75 DH Robins XI 2 Shepard Hemmings Close
Mar-75 DH Robins XI 28* Shepard Hemmings Close
Mar-75 DH Robins XI 58 Shepard Walker Greig Jenner
Mar-75 DH Robins XI 28 Shepard Walker Greig Jenner
Jul-75 Australia 96 Thomson Hurst Walker Higgs Mallett
Jul-75 Australia 69 Thomson Hurst Walker Higgs Mallett
Jan-76 DH Robins XI 5 Hendrik Douglas Cope Steele
Jan-76 DH Robins XI 13 Hendrik Douglas Cope Steele
Apr-76 I'ntl Wanderers 52 Lillee Gilmour Walker Shephard Mallett
Apr-76 I'ntl Wanderers 0 Lillee Gilmour Walker Shephard Mallett
Apr-76 I'ntl Wanderers 33 Lillee Gilmour Hurst Shephard Underwood
Apr-76 I'ntl Wanderers 80 Lillee Gilmour Hurst Shephard Underwood
Mar-82 EngSA Brewries 66 Taylor Lever Old Underwood
Mar-82 EngSA Brewries 4 Taylor Lever Old Underwood
Mar-82 EngSA Brewries 8 Taylor Lever Old Underwood Willey
Mar-82 EngSA Brewries 41 Taylor Lever Old Hendrick
Mar-82 EngSA Brewries 17 Taylor Lever Old Hendrick
Jan-83 Windies 49 Clark Stephenson Mosley Parry
Jan-83 Windies 7 Clark Stephenson Mosley Parry
Jan-83 Windies 0 Clark Stephenson King Parry
Jan-83 Windies 59 Clark Stephenson King Parry