Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[bagapath]

i do standby my take on performances against minnows and vettori not in the same league as other spinners etc. only the "bits and pieces" part was the doosra

 

[Zinzan]

i do standby my take on performances against minnows and vettori not in the same league as other spinners etc. only the "bits and pieces" part was the doosra

I can leave this thread alone for now, because it was primarily your 'bit's & pieces' label that I was opposed to.

That's not to say I'm 100% in agreeance with your other points, but at least the others have some validity to them to warrant debate whereas 'bit & pieces' was just nonsense

 

[marc71178]

And in regards to the question of the 'greatest spin bowling all-rounder of all time', this is actually a tough one to define, because lets be honest, there haven't been that many great spinning allrounder's personally I'd probably say Benaud would be the one I'd select, but there not much after him except Vettori & Ravi S is there?

Depends to a degree what you class Sobers as.

 

[Zinzan]

Depends to a degree what you class Sobers as.

Certainly wouldn't have classed him primarily as an off-spinning all-rounder, but now you mention it, would be interested in how many of his 235 wickets came as a result of his slow left-arm orthodox bowling. Wouldn't imagine it would be an easy stat to find though.

 

[bagapath]

Certainly wouldn't have classed him primarily as an off-spinning all-rounder, but now you mention it, would be interested in how many of his 235 wickets came as a result of his slow left-arm orthodox bowling. Wouldn't imagine it would be an easy stat to find though.

now he mentions it??? i mentioned it a few pages ago and you ignored me!!!

 

[Zinzan]

now he mentions it??? i mentioned it a few pages ago and you ignored me!!!

Haha, do kinda recall you mentioning it now, but at the time was so entrenched in the whole 'bits & pieces' call, didn't give it a second thought. Just illustrates how your conceding that point earlier has cleared my mind

 

[Ikki]

Certainly wouldn't have classed him primarily as an off-spinning all-rounder, but now you mention it, would be interested in how many of his 235 wickets came as a result of his slow left-arm orthodox bowling. Wouldn't imagine it would be an easy stat to find though.

I don't think the relevant question is how many...but at what cost (runs and wickets). From what I know of him, I'd class him below the likes of Vettori as a spin bowler.

 

[Uppercut]

I can leave this thread alone for now, because it was primarily your 'bit's & pieces' label that I was opposed to.

That's not to say I'm 100% in agreeance with your other points, but at least the others have some validity to them to warrant debate whereas 'bit & pieces' was just nonsense

Haha, 'bits and pieces' is a bit of a vague term. I'd call someone like Dwayne Bravo a bits and pieces all-rounder, but I wouldn't mean he's not any good. I had no idea the phrase was so offensive to some.

 

[four_or_six]

It's a shame that the 'all-time' player rankings are only calculated for batsmen and bowlers, and not all-rounders. Not sure why that is.

 

[Athlai]

It's a shame that the 'all-time' player rankings are only calculated for batsmen and bowlers, and not all-rounders. Not sure why that is.

Was actually just looking at these, mainly to see where Taylor was. (5 points away from Fleming's peak of 725)

Vettori is currently at 404 in the current Test allrounder rankings, a smidge behind Kallis but a long way away from his peak. But then again Flintoff also had that massive peak and isn't as good as Kallis longterm.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't think the relevant question is how many...but at what cost (runs and wickets). From what I know of him, I'd class him below the likes of Vettori as a spin bowler.

That Vettori's a better spinner than Sobers was is essentially beyond doubt, but it wasn't exactly the question. There's a difference between being the best spinner who could also bat to a somewhat serious standard and being the best spin-bowling allrounder. When it comes to Sobers and Vettori, the question is merely whether or not Sobers - minus his seam bowling - was a better allrounder than Vettori. Sobers's batting was significantly better than Vettori's, so his spin bowling doesn't really have to be better than Vettori's to take the mantle - just be closer to Vettori's standard than Vettori's batting is to Sobers's batting.. which it probably was.

 

[Prince EWS]

It's a shame that the 'all-time' player rankings are only calculated for batsmen and bowlers, and not all-rounders. Not sure why that is.

You could go through and calculate them yourself if you so wished - all they do to get the current ones is multiply batting by bowling and then divide by 1000 IIRC.

EDIT: Actually, they've done that already, what they don't have is a ranked all-time standings list. I understand what you mean now.

 

[bagapath]

That Vettori's a better spinner than Sobers was is essentially beyond doubt, but it wasn't exactly the question. There's a difference between being the best spinner who could also bat to a somewhat serious standard and being the best spin-bowling allrounder. When it comes to Sobers and Vettori, the question is merely whether or not Sobers - minus his seam bowling - was a better allrounder than Vettori. Sobers's batting was significantly better than Vettori's, so his spin bowling doesn't really have to be better than Vettori's to take the mantle - just be closer to Vettori's standard than Vettori's batting is to Sobers's batting.. which it probably was.

will be very difficult to disagree with that! proves how foolish it is to hand over that title to vettori on a platter.

 

[Prince EWS]

Was actually just looking at these, mainly to see where Taylor was. (5 points away from Fleming's peak of 725)

Vettori is currently at 404 in the current Test allrounder rankings, a smidge behind Kallis but a long way away from his peak. But then again Flintoff also had that massive peak and isn't as good as Kallis longterm.

It's a shame that the 'all-time' player rankings are only calculated for batsmen and bowlers, and not all-rounders. Not sure why that is.

On the subject of these, assorted peaks for spin-bowling allrounders:

Richie Benaud - 532
Aubrey Faulkner - 501
Vinoo Mankad - 417
Daniel Vettori - 404
Mushtaq Mohammad - 386
Sanath Jayasuriya - 355
Frank Woolley - 349
Hedley Verity - 344
Billy Bates - 318
Ravi Shastri - 311
Wilfred Rhodes - 309

 

[Prince EWS]

Benaud's peak rating, despite being described as a "nowhere near as good as MacGill and an inconsistent hitter" earlier in this thread, was actually higher than Imran Khan's peak rating.

 

[Shri]

> All.

 

[Migara]

Deadly Derek as well, though he barely qualifies for the S part of SLA.

I've heard that he's a tiger on damp pitches, ***** on covered wickets

 

[Smudge]

i am happy to concede to you that you are right, zinzan. that assessment of yours in bold is spot on. once i got upset with vettori getting praised to the sky i had to jump in with aggro. a lot of you guys crossed the boiling point too early in the debate; so i couldn't resist.

Excellent - so you've just admitted to trolling. I look forward to the moderators taking action.

 

[Faisal1985]

Vettori, an all time great all rounder........????? Can't digest that, batting is not to that level.

 

[bagapath]

Excellent - so you've just admitted to trolling. I look forward to the moderators taking action.

may be you should read the thread and see how much time was devoted to what and then issue threats.

would they also take action against someone saying "vettori is the greatest spin bowling all rounder of all time" for the sheer stupidity of the statement?